How Joe Troyer Same-Day Closes Local Clients on Pay Per Lead SEO Deals

In this episode, I’m sitting down with Joe Troyer to talk about local PPL for SEOs.

Joe runs a local lead generation agency, where they build up local sites then sell the calls and enquiries to local businesses.

In this episode, we cover:

07:31 – How to price your leads

08:40 – How to close PPL deals without even owning a website

13:37 – The best type of industries to work in for SEO PPL

20:55 – The 3 biggest mistakes most people make when doing PPL

25:09 – Advice for beginners on how to set up PPL deals

39:01 – Sneaky PPL ranking tricks

Watch it here:

Or Subscribe to the show on iTunes.

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Links and Resources Mentioned:



Daryl Rosser: Hey, what’s up guys? Welcome back to another episode of the Lion Zeal Show. This episode, I’m sitting down with Joe Troyer to talk about pay per lead, specifically how you can make money from selling leads to local businesses. Before we get into it, got a quick message from our sponsor and we’ll get back to it.

This episode is sponsored by me. Here’s the deal. On the 25th of January, I’m officially launching Scientific Rankings Monthly for the first time ever. This is a private monthly training and a community that I’m putting together to bring you new SEO training every single month, including live Q&A sessions from myself and from popular guests from the Lion Zeal Show. As a quick sneak peek, here’s some of the stuff that we’re covering throughout this training.

We’re kicking off month one with my full onsite SEO training series. Then, in the other months, we’ll be seeing Matt Diggity’s ranking process, how Dan Ray builds white hat links for his 50k plus per month consulting business, how Stinus makes over 10k per month from foreign SEO and a whole lot more. Make sure that you get on the waiting list at, and I’ll see you on January the 25th.

All right. What we’re going to get into in this episode is pay per lead SEO, so generating leads for your SEO that you sell to local businesses. We’re really going to break down a step-by-step process from knowing absolutely nothing whatsoever about PPL to having a website that generates leads that you can sell to local businesses, and how to actually go out there and how to sell them from contacting the businesses, and really cover pretty much everything you could possibly ask. Where it’s like, “How do you price your leads? Which industries are the best to cover?”

We cover absolutely all of that within this interview, so let’s just cut straight into it. You can access all this information and really just learn from someone that’s a master at PPL stuff. Let’s cut into it, hope you enjoy the episode.

Hi, what’s up man? Thanks for joining me on the show today.

Joe Troyer:  Yeah man. Thanks for having me. I’m excited to hang out.

Daryl Rosser:  Yeah, for sure. Do you want to start with a little intro for anyone that isn’t quite sure who you are or not that familiar with you?

Joe Troyer: Yeah, yeah. I’m Joe Troyer from Digital Triggers. I’ve been doing this stuff, man, since 2008, 2009.

Daryl Rosser: Okay.

Joe Troyer: Got into web development, web design. I knew that I wanted to be doing something online, I just didn’t know how to get there, right? Web design was an easy … And web development, started taking classes online for it. Was about eight months in and was like, “I need to see if I can actually make some money with this before I spend any more time on it.” Dropped out of college to pursue that. In two months, I had sold 12 or $13,000 in web design and development contracts, and was like, “Okay. Now, I need to actually figure out how the hell to do this.”

Daryl Rosser: That’s a pretty good start.

Joe Troyer: Yeah. It was a good proof of concept for me. I’m pretty good face-to-face, I can sell stuff. I needed to see if I was going to be able to do something with it, or if I had just wasted eight or nine months of my life.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Joe Troyer: Fast forward, then did web development, web design for a couple of years and realized that I wanted to be in the marketing side of it. Started shifting into that side, and we opened up a traditional agency. I moved to South Florida where I’m at now, West Palm Beach, and had a lot of mom-and-pop businesses, a lot of big e-comm businesses too. Some of my claims to fame, so to speak, ranked a client number one for watches, ranked a client number two for fat loss. Obviously pretty competitive.

Daryl Rosser: That’s awesome.

Joe Troyer: Worked with some big e-comm companies, some of the top Ink or top 500 e-commerce stores. Every year, Ink puts out that book of the top 500.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Joe Troyer: Realized though that SEO was becoming more and more competitive, and started really, really pushing local because of how easy it was. Frankly, I could get paid about the same amount of money if I was good in how I structured my deals.

Daryl Rosser: Interesting, okay.

Joe Troyer: That’s how I got into SEO, so to speak. Now, full-time, I spend my time doing lead gen primarily on a pay per call basis.

Daryl Rosser: Okay. That’s really interesting that you went for smaller clients. Most people’s fear is that if they get a local client, that they’re only going to make maybe 500, even $1K or so a month versus these big $10K dollar a month clients. See you want to get bigger.

Joe Troyer: Yeah. I mean we had some $20K and $30,000 a month clients. Ultimately, the problem is when you lose one of those, the hit is huge.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah, yeah.

Joe Troyer: You know what I mean? If you have one or two of those and then the rest are smaller companies, and they’re paying you 1,000 to 5,000 even a month, you lose one of those big boys and you’re all scaled up, in terms of operations in your team, it can be an utter disaster to recover from that.

Daryl Rosser: Got you, yeah. What sort of size clients do you work with?

Joe Troyer: Do you lay off a bunch of people? Or do you hang onto them and try to make it fit and take the hit yourself?

Daryl Rosser: Yeah. I imagine it’s a pretty tough situation, yeah.

Joe Troyer: What were you saying?

Daryl Rosser: What sort of size clients are you working with these days?

Joe Troyer: We primarily go after home services types of verticals.

Daryl Rosser: Okay, nice.

Joe Troyer: Traditionally stuff that closes really, really fast so the job closes pretty quick. Not all emergency stuff, but stuff that’s semi-emergency, right? If your roof’s leaking, you’re going to get it fixed, right?

Daryl Rosser: Okay.

Joe Troyer: If you come home and your house is flooded and you have water damage, you need somebody to fix it right away. That’s a little more emergency, but just stuff that has a really, really fast turnover so we can show clients very, very quickly what our ROI is from working with us.

Daryl Rosser: Got you.

Joe Troyer: I’ve worked with attorneys and stuff that have really, really long … Personal injury attorneys. They could get 300 leads and maybe close one for the year and they’d be happy.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Joe Troyer: The problem is every month, they’re like, “Are your leads good? Are your leads good? Are your leads good?” I just hate reselling people over and over again.

Daryl Rosser: Okay, that makes sense. Yeah, those ones that took a very long time to really represent the value, even though they made really good money from a single client, right? These guys, home services, they make good money and a lot of leads are solid.

Joe Troyer: I think the other thing is with home services, you can get through to the decision maker, in most times, a lot easier.

Daryl Rosser: Okay.

Joe Troyer: Right? In the home services space, I close same day deals left and right, almost every single day.

Daryl Rosser: Okay. The lead comes in and you close it? Or …

Joe Troyer: No. What I mean by that is, let’s say okay, we’re getting incoming calls in Orlando for roofers.

Daryl Rosser: Okay.

Joe Troyer: I can literally close a roofer in a day or two, right?

Daryl Rosser: Got you.

Joe Troyer: Compared to more traditional white collar type of businesses. It’s going to take you a day or two just to get a meeting with the decision maker, and then you’re going to have to actually get to getting a cheque.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah, okay. With the pay per lead stuff, what sort of approach …

Joe Troyer: What is it?

Daryl Rosser: Yeah, yeah. How exactly does it work?

How to Price Your Leads

Joe Troyer: I think that a lot of people, I think, in pay per lead get stuck with the chicken or the egg, right?

Daryl Rosser: Okay.

Joe Troyer: It’s like which one do I do first?

Daryl Rosser: Yeah, yeah. Exactly, yeah.

Joe Troyer: Do I get the calls coming in first or do I go sell first? My experience would be to go sell first, right?

Daryl Rosser: Okay.

Joe Troyer: There’s two sides of every business. There’s sales and fulfilment, and you’ve got to eat both of them no matter what, okay? What’s going to get you more excited if you go get a $1500 cheque or a $3,000 cheque? Or if you get a client up and it’s bringing in some phone calls? There’s no parallel. Everybody will say, “I want that cheque.”

Daryl Rosser: I’m with you completely with that, yeah.

Joe Troyer: Right? Will you work your ass off and will you work non-stop until you can deliver for that client? Yes, right? What’s the worst case that can happen? Oh sorry, I won’t bill you anymore until we catch you up on the leads that we promised.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Joe Troyer: It’s not that big of a deal. It’s not the end of the world. It’s not like they’re going to come after you or something.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Joe Troyer: I like personally selling the deal first, and then doing fulfilment.

Daryl Rosser: Okay, awesome. How would you go out there and get that … Say someone’s deciding that, “Okay. I want to do that,” how do they go out there and get that client that they can sell their leads to?

Closing PPL Deals Without Even Owning a Website

Joe Troyer: Just traditional prospecting.

Daryl Rosser: Okay.

Joe Troyer: We use and teach a system that’s basically what start-ups use, right? It’s a sales stack. It’s a combination of all the tools that you need, so a lead gen tool, a prospecting or cold email tool, some type of CRM capabilities and then something for actually taking payment and getting a signed contract. Right?

Daryl Rosser: Okay.

Joe Troyer: All those tools and the phone is what we use.

Daryl Rosser: Your ugly stuff, just picking up the phone and making some calls and stuff.

Joe Troyer: Yeah. Picking up the phone, cold email, that’s it. I mean simple, simple. The thing is, that you have to think about too, is that in terms of conversion rates, it’s a lot easier to pick up a pay per call client or a lead gen client than it is SEO. They’re being pitched SEO every single day, right?

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Joe Troyer: We don’t have to go in and provide a bunch of value and make ourselves look different, because our service is different.

Daryl Rosser: Okay. How do you angle that when you’re messaging initially? You send them a cold email.

Joe Troyer: Yeah.

Daryl Rosser: How are you doing the traditional video audit stuff people are doing these days? Or how do you angle it?

Joe Troyer: We don’t do any of it.

Daryl Rosser: Okay.

Joe Troyer: We don’t do any of the video audit stuff or any website audit or pay per click audit or any of that stuff, because we don’t need to. We’re not selling them SEO, we’re not selling them pay per click. We’re just selling them more calls, right?

Daryl Rosser: Okay.

Joe Troyer: We’re selling them more business. That’s as close to being in partnership or in bed with them as we can possibly be without owning part of the company.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Joe Troyer: Our angle is do you need more business? I have phone calls for this vertical, do you want some?

Daryl Rosser: Nice, okay. Simple as it gets.

Joe Troyer: It is literally that simple.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Joe Troyer: Yeah. I mean we can sexify that a little bit, make it sound a little bit better, right? I mean that’s the gist of it.

Daryl Rosser: Okay. What I’m thinking is that some people are going to be asking if you don’t go that route initially and just email them, “Hey. We have some leads.” Some people are going to doubting themselves if they don’t have the leads already, if they’re taking the approach which you recommend, I think it’s a great approach as well, just get the clients first.

Joe Troyer: Yeah.

Daryl Rosser: How do you deal with that if you don’t actually have any leads yet?

Joe Troyer: Okay. I do SEO.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Joe Troyer: Here’s my work experience. I do this type of marketing, whatever it is that the people do that are listening right now, mostly SEO I’d assume because that’s what you talk about the most, right? Pay per click or whatever the source is, show examples of your work, right? Then, say, “I’m starting a new venture where I only charge per call, only charge per lead. You don’t have to pay me to do your social media and SEO and everything else. Would that be of interest to you?” Who is going to say no?

Daryl Rosser: It’s a pretty awesome deal.

Joe Troyer: It’s truly a win-win.

Daryl Rosser: It’s win-win. Yeah.

Joe Troyer: Yeah. I mean they don’t have much risk. The only risk is just how long does it take you to deliver? It’s not will this actually bring me what I want, which is phone calls, which is what they’re thinking about in every pitch that they get from a marketer.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Joe Troyer: It’s one step closer, so you actually deal with a lot less rejection than you would in typical types of service offerings that most of your people are used to probably.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, like you’re saying, it’s a much easier … You’re not selling them £1,000 a month or whatever it is deal. It’s just like, “Here’s how many calls you can get, here’s the cost per call.”

Joe Troyer: Exactly, yeah.

Daryl Rosser: Okay.

Joe Troyer: I mean it’s super simple. Frankly, you can be creative in getting calls too, right? For example, the niches that we target, the average customer values are pretty high, right?

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Joe Troyer: Let’s say that we’re going and selling, for example since I brought it up, a roofer. We’re selling roofing calls for $125 apiece.

Daryl Rosser: Okay.

Joe Troyer: How can you get roofing calls quickly? Be creative. I mean it doesn’t have to be ranking in Google, right?

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Joe Troyer: We all think so pigeon holed and we all just … Our heads are straight down and we’re running as fast as we can.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Joe Troyer: How can you get some calls quickly? I mean, frankly, you could get one to two calls a day, no problem, just with Craigslist posting. Be creative, and I’m not talking about spamming the crap out of Craigslist and running into problems. I’m talking about do three or four posts a day. People that have problems posting to Craigslist, for example, the problem is is that they try to do 1,000 posts in a day, right?

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Joe Troyer: Of course, you’re going to have trouble, right? I mean be creative. It’s not that difficult, you know?

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Joe Troyer: A roofer, let’s say that we sold him on a $1500 package and we’re selling him leads for even $100. We only need to deliver 15 calls.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah. That’s not many.

Joe Troyer: I can do that just with Craigslist in half a month, right? Easy, slacking. Then, I use that profit to reinvest. Google is our primary long-term vehicle to get the ROI.

Know the Best Type of Industries to Work in for SEO PPL

Daryl Rosser: Okay. With the, you said, $125, I’m presuming these days you know, different industries, you know what to aim for? Like roofing, you said exactly 125. How do you figure that out in the first place?

Joe Troyer: Yeah. We teach people a process that we have them go through. It’s just a consultative type of sale, right? When we’re doing our consult with the local business owner, we go through rapport building and getting their back story and getting them to open up. We ask them about what other marketing services they’ve tried? We dig in there, what’s worked, what hasn’t worked, so that we can understand their emotions to things before we start going into our pitch.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Joe Troyer: Right? Then, we go into actually getting the numbers. It’s a consultative sale. We figure out what a call is worth. What’s your average customer value? What do you close on the phone, in terms of appointments being booked? Then, what do you actually close in person, right? We figure out for them what a call is actually worth to them. Then, it’s just about figuring out what they’re willing to pay for it.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah, yeah. I think it is really that simple, but it’s so over-complicated.

Joe Troyer: It’s really that simple. The thing I tell people when they ask me, “How much do I charge for this niche,” is go talk to a business owner.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Joe Troyer: Go have conversations. At the end of three conversations, you’re going to know what you should be charging.

Daryl Rosser: Okay.

Joe Troyer: That’s it.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Joe Troyer: Then, I think that one of the things that everybody has a problem with when they’re first getting started is transitioning into a pitch, right? How do you go from a consultative sale or any type of meeting with a prospect to getting into the pitch?

Daryl Rosser: I sucked at this at the beginning.

Joe Troyer: Yeah. Me too. I think all of us have.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Joe Troyer: With lead gen, it’s really easy. We get them to tell us how many jobs would make a difference in your business right now? How many jobs would move the needle for you?

Daryl Rosser: Okay.

Joe Troyer: They tell us and then we’re like, “Okay. That would be roughly this many calls, right? Yeah, okay. Let’s go ahead and get started. You want to pay with American Express or Visa? Let’s get this thing rolling.” We just walk them to the fountain to start drinking. We just …

Daryl Rosser: That’s awesome.

Joe Troyer: Super simple.

Daryl Rosser: Just really soft switch.

Joe Troyer: We assume the close.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Joe Troyer: Yeah. Really soft switch, assume the close and why wouldn’t you get started? Okay, so let’s go ahead and start with that Mr. Prospect.

Daryl Rosser: Nice.

Joe Troyer: Just need some quick information from you. We get some information. Okay, great and then we move for asking for the credit card.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Joe Troyer: We don’t make a big deal about. It’s not like, “I’m going to send you a proposal. I’m going to send you an outline.” Are you interested? Will you buy?

Daryl Rosser: All in one call?

Joe Troyer: Yeah, all in one call. What happens then is the real objections start coming out.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Joe Troyer: If you ask them for money on the spot, the real objections come out. A lot of people do a consult with people, and then they send them an outline. They send them a proposal, whatever it is, right? Then, they’re waiting and they’re like, “Are they going to come on board? Aren’t they going to come on board? What’s going to happen?”

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Joe Troyer: What’s interesting is when we were doing that, we tracked how many people actually opened the proposal and outline. It was a quarter, 20, 15%.

Daryl Rosser: Okay.

Joe Troyer: We’re thinking that all these people may come on board but, yet, nobody’s even looked at the proposal. What’s the point? We switched to doing it all on the phone. What’s great then is you get what the real problems are, right? You get the push back and you get to deal with them live and figure it out.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah, instantly. As soon as you ask for the money, they start coming out straightaway.

Joe Troyer: Exactly. What are the real objections?

Daryl Rosser: Yeah, awesome man. With the … So you’re charging, say, 125, I guess it’s obviously going to vary depending on the industry.

Joe Troyer: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Daryl Rosser: When you sell the initial package, is it a fixed number of leads upfront? Or is it … How does that work?

Joe Troyer: I think for anybody that doesn’t have a fulfilment process already in place, hasn’t really ever dealt with the niche before, I think that the best way to start is to sell a block of calls.

Daryl Rosser: Okay.

Joe Troyer: It’s like they told you 10 leads a month would make a difference. All right, so let’s get you started with 10, 10 times the billable amount and go from there. I think that’s the easiest. If you have your fulfilment strategy figured out, you can either go for a really big block, right? If you’ve already proven it or, in some cases, we know the industries very well. We actually put people just on a rolling monthly retainer.

Daryl Rosser: Okay, like straightaway.

Joe Troyer: It’s $2500 a month and we’ll get you between 12 and 15 leads, or 20 and 25 leads.

Daryl Rosser: Okay. Are you supplementing the SEO stuff with other stuff initially to fulfil that straightaway?

Joe Troyer: Yeah. I mean in industries where we can, yeah, there’s definitely supplemental things that we can do, like we were talking about earlier, to start generating some inbound calls.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah. Just …

Joe Troyer: The niches that we go after too, we don’t have to drive a lot of calls, right?

Daryl Rosser: Sure.

Joe Troyer: I think that’s another key. It’s not like … I had one of our customers reach out today and say that he was, or last night, say that he was talking with a garage door repair company. They were only willing to pay $20 per call, but the guy was ready to write a cheque. I’m like, “I don’t think that’s a great idea. If you’re trying to make three grand a month from this guy, how many leads are you going to have to send him?”

Daryl Rosser: Yeah, exactly.

Joe Troyer: “You need to start delivering on that immediately. That sounds like a long, painful road. I’d skip that one if I were you.”

Daryl Rosser: Sure. What sort of …

Joe Troyer: We work in some huge verticals. In the water damage space, for example, we get paid over $400 a call.

Daryl Rosser: Nice. That’s not many calls to 4k a month, just 10 calls.

Joe Troyer: Yeah, exactly. I mean it’s a big money business, for sure.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah. Would you recommend then going for industries where you can negotiate $100 plus a lead? Or is there a minimum you aim for?

Joe Troyer: I think that the minimum probably people should aim for is probably 70 bucks a lead.

Daryl Rosser: Okay.

Joe Troyer: The thing that’s interesting is the water damage business doesn’t have a lot of volume, but it makes up for it because they’re very high priced.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Joe Troyer: Then, you have other industries that are pretty high priced, but there’s a ton of volume. Roofing, for example, there’s a boatload of volume. We sell for 100 to 125. There’s a lot of volume. Or HVAC, for example, is even less than roofing. We’re getting 65 to 85 a call, but there’s probably double or triple the volume that there is in roofing.

Daryl Rosser: Got you, yeah. You have to take that all into account?

Joe Troyer: I think you have to take that into consideration.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah, okay. What are the three biggest mistakes you see people making when they’re doing pay per lead stuff?

The 3 Biggest Mistakes Most People Make When Doing PPL

Joe Troyer: Three biggest mistakes. I think the biggest mistake is just not getting on the phone, you know? I think the biggest mistake that we all make in an SEO or agency type of business when we’re getting started is hiding behind the screen. Oh I’m only going to send emails or whatever their method is that they’re comfortable with. I think the phone is your friend. The worst thing that somebody can say is, “No.”

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Joe Troyer: Don’t get me wrong. I still don’t like getting on the phone with a cold prospect. It is what it is. I still get nervous, but that’s how you get deals done.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah. I’m with you there. It’s so much easier to get stuff done if you just … Yeah. It’s terrifying, especially when you start out but it gets stuff done.

Joe Troyer: I think the other thing is, sounds kind of cliché, but one of my favourite things to ask on the phone when a call isn’t going well, or when I get an objection and I’m not sure how to handle it, is just asking why?

Daryl Rosser: Simple.

Joe Troyer: The power of why is so crazy, right? You get into their reasoning for why they’re saying that. Then, you can start to come up with how to get past that objection.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Joe Troyer: That’s two.

Daryl Rosser: Put you on the spot here.

Joe Troyer: Yeah. Three, I would say don’t go after white collar businesses. Go after blue collar. I think anybody getting started, it’s so much easier to sell a blue collar deal and one that’s a short sale cycle than a white collar, long sale cycle type of niche. I stay away from attorneys, doctors, dentists and I’ve worked with them all in the past.

Daryl Rosser: Okay.

Joe Troyer: It’s just my own experience, my personal preference, I just don’t like it. Between constantly having to resell them, getting through the gatekeeper and actually getting their time and attention is a lot more difficult. The sales process is longer. Ultimately, this is going to sound horrible, but with a lot of white collar people, they go to school for so long, right? Dentists and doctors and things like that, lawyers, they go to school for so long. By the time that they finally get done, they feel like they deserve to have the position that they do. A lot of them just aren’t business people. A lot of dentists, for example, they go to school for so long, they get done. They think that they have the right to just sit in the chair all day and be a dentist. They don’t want and they push back the business side. That makes it obviously very hard for marketers like us to do business with them.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah. I’ve heard some stories about dealing with … I have a friend that runs a dental agency and stuff. I’ve heard some stories.

Joe Troyer: Yeah. Do they have the right? I mean they went to school for a long time, yeah, but if you don’t market your business, ultimately you’re going to fail. I mean …

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Joe Troyer: Do you have the right to be a dentist? Yes, but you still need to market your business these days. You’re going to have a lot of trouble.

Daryl Rosser: Okay. I think that’s good advice. Blue collar type clients are, from my experience as well, far easier to deal with. So easy to communicate with.

Joe Troyer: The speed to a transaction.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Joe Troyer: I think that’s super important for somebody new, so that they don’t get discouraged and they don’t just quit, you know? If I can get somebody a deal in a couple of days on a new model, they’re excited. They’re running with it. They’re full speed ahead, you know?

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Joe Troyer: If somebody comes in and they’re trying to sell something for a couple of weeks and they’re not having any success, they’re probably not going to stick with it.

Daryl Rosser: That makes sense.

Joe Troyer: I don’t blame them.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah, yeah. Being able to take on a client, generate some leads for them within a week, potentially you’ve added $20,000 to their business just like that.

Joe Troyer: Yeah, exactly.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Joe Troyer: Yeah.

Daryl Rosser: That’s awesome. Okay, so you’ve gone out there. They’ve got some guts, they pick up the phone. They got that first lead gen client coming in. What about the technical stuff? How do they set up the deal? How do they start tracking things? How does all that work?

Advice for beginners on how to set up PPL deals

Joe Troyer: Yeah. The first software product that we ever released, as a company at Digital Triggers, is a call tracking platform. When I first got into lead gen in 2010, end of 2010, beginning of 2011, I stumbled into it, but I was spending, basically on track to spend $100,000 a year just on call tracking so that I could prove what I was doing.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah. That’s quite a lot.

Joe Troyer: I knew that there had to be a better way. We literally tried all these different providers. Ultimately, we found Twilio. You familiar with Twilio?

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Joe Troyer: Okay. We found Twilio in their early stages. It was great. It was like, “Okay. The phone numbers are a dollar per month. It’s a penny a minute. This is fantastic.” I was paying eight to $10 a phone number and six to 10 cents a minute.

Daryl Rosser: Okay, so that’s huge. Yeah, yeah.

Joe Troyer: Holy cow. This is going to be nuts. We signed up. I’m like, “Dude. I thought this was call tracking. It’s just … ” Have you ever been inside of a Twilio account?

Daryl Rosser: It’s complex, even though I’m a developer.

Joe Troyer: Yeah. I mean you have to be a developer, right? It’s built for developers to use. They are not a call tracking platform.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Joe Troyer: I had my developer stop everything that he was doing and basically, for a month, put together something that we could use internally for call tracking to replace our other call tracking vendor that we were using, and instantly saved us 100 grand for the year.

Daryl Rosser: Wow. That’s huge, yeah.

Joe Troyer: Yeah. Then, friends and customers and stuff like that started asking, “Hey. Can we buy that? Can we buy it?” I kept saying, “No, no. Why would I ever sell you this? This is my golden goose. I saved so much money with this.” Ultimately, we ended up opening it up to the public.

Daryl Rosser: Okay. That’s awesome. It’s a system for using Twilio to …

Joe Troyer: Yeah. It’s a system that sits on top of Twilio. Basically Twilio is the back-end, right? You have to be a developer to use Twilio. It’s the front-end. It’s for you to use, but then also your clients to use. For every customer, we send them a login so they can see the calls that we’re sending them.

Daryl Rosser: Oh really? Cool.

Joe Troyer: They can run their own reports. When they say, “Hey man. I saw you just billed me again. Where’s my report?”

Daryl Rosser: Easier just to log in.

Joe Troyer: In the, yeah, in the demo and in the on boarding webinar presentation we did, we walked you through the call tracking, remember? Oh yeah, so they can log in and look at all their stuff. Our reporting every month is, “Hey. We sent you this. Here’s your login, and we just ding your credit card for this amount.”

Daryl Rosser: That’s awesome, okay. Really, really easy.

Joe Troyer: Yeah. We don’t have to tell them, “This is what we did for you this month,” like a traditional agency type of business. The cool thing is, you know this, if you’re working with a local company, the first three, four months are extremely front loaded, in terms of your work in Google and everything else.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Joe Troyer: Then, after that, your time investment just starts to go down. That’s the great thing with lead gen is once you build the assets and you have the systems going, I mean you can pretty much walk away from it and it still just continues to churn.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah. With a lead gen, is it a brand new site you’re setting up? You’re not doing their sites?

Joe Troyer: Yeah, brand new site.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah. I figured. I know some people have questions about this sort of stuff.

Joe Troyer: Yeah, yeah. We do brand new sites. The reason is we have to own the asset. If they walk away, I’m not going back to zero.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah, exactly.

Joe Troyer: Right? I’m not going to pump their brand and then go compete with myself.

Daryl Rosser: Absolutely. Have you had situations before where someone’s cancelled, then you’ve literally just picked up the phone, called another company and sold them the leads?

Joe Troyer: Definitely.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Joe Troyer: Same day.

Daryl Rosser: Awesome. Actually rented it out the same day, that’s cool.

Joe Troyer: It was same day, yeah. For sure. I mean the other thing that you’ll start to run into … And one of the reasons that I love lead gen versus the rank and rent model, I personally can’t stand that model. I’m 100% against it. The reason is the better that we do, as a company, the more money I want to make. The rank and rent model is the opposite, right?

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Joe Troyer: If I’m sending 30 calls at $125 apiece, three grand a month, four grand a month, versus renting the site for 1,000, no thanks. I’m just not interested. The better we do, the more money it makes. I mean all the time, we’ll blow away a local business and they can’t take any more of the calls.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah, I bet.

Joe Troyer: We build the assets, we’ll get it humming and they’re like, “Whoa, whoa dude. Slow down. I can take a third of what you’re sending me.” We’ll have to literally, on the spot, go find another contractor or two to fill the gap.

Daryl Rosser: Wow, okay. Do you have that on a few sites? Do you mean you’re splitting it where you’re sending some calls to one company and the rest to others? Okay.

Joe Troyer: Mm-hmm. Yeah, so not multiple sites necessarily. We can … With the call tracking platform or with any call tracking platform, there’s usually functionality to say where you want the call flow to go. We can basically put in rules to say, “The first call goes to this guy. The second call to this guy. The third to this guy.” Or we can do some type of waiting system and put in some caps or some limits to ensure that they don’t go over what they’ve agreed to.

Daryl Rosser: Okay, that’s cool. I presume you don’t need a massive amount of traffic. It’s like local SEO to generate these leads.

Joe Troyer: Yeah. That’s the crazy thing about local, right, and why I got out of e-comm. We did a bunch of affiliate stuff, SEO affiliate stuff, and the thing is you’re competing with every affiliate out there, every SEO out there. It’s competitive, right?

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Joe Troyer: When you get into local, you’re competing against a roofer, a AC repair company that’s paying somebody to do it for them. You can probably kick their ass pretty easily, because they don’t care. It’s just one out of their 20 or 30 clients, right?

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Joe Troyer: Then, the other thing, like you were saying is you don’t need a whole lot of traffic, right? A lot of our sites convert 50 to 60% of the traffic to a call.

Daryl Rosser: Nice.

Joe Troyer: That’s like an opt-in conversion rate.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah, it is. Yeah.

Joe Troyer: A good opt-in conversion rate, but for a phone call. Not for a form submit.

Daryl Rosser: Okay. How do you set up the sites then? Is there any tricks to that?

Joe Troyer: Not so much. I mean there’s tricks obviously for conversions but ultimately, at the end of the day, as long as you’re in a more emergency type of business, or more I need a solution pretty quickly, the conversion rates are going to be really high.

Daryl Rosser: Because they’re searching to find a company to call right now.

Joe Troyer: Exactly. They land there, is this company reputable? Are they local? Can they help me? Yes, and they’re going to pick up the phone and call.

Daryl Rosser: Okay. Primarily, you generate the leads through SEO, are you saying?

Joe Troyer: Mm-hmm (affirmative), yeah.

Daryl Rosser: Do you do any AdWords or anything like that? Or is it, or Facebook Ads, or is it all just SEO is your thing?

Joe Troyer: Facebook doesn’t really work with the type of businesses that we target.

Daryl Rosser: Got you, okay.

Joe Troyer: Right? We’re targeting not all emergency situations again, but if you need your AC fixed, if it goes out, are you going to go look on Facebook for somebody fix your AC? No. It’s direct response, right? Google is the place for us to do well. I have a really good friend that works with weight loss clinics and stuff like that. He does all display with Facebook. It’s the difference between display and search. People aren’t just looking all the time for weight loss clinics, right? He can show a nice banner and get their attention and drive them in that way, but nobody’s going to go on Facebook and see a roofing ad and be like, “Yes. I want a free consult.”

Daryl Rosser: Yeah, absolutely. That’s totally true.

Joe Troyer: Search is the biggest driver by far.

Daryl Rosser: Okay. What about, I presume it’s different for you because you’re running multiple things, but what sort of lifestyle do you have while managing all these different clients and all the stuff you’re doing?

Joe Troyer: The great thing about the lead gen business, I mean it’s client management no matter what.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Joe Troyer: Every business is going to have a client management. A lot of people think, I’m going to get into lead gen and I don’t have to deal with clients anymore. You still have clients, you’re wrong.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Joe Troyer: The great thing about it is that there’s not a reporting meeting and they’re questioning what you did for them every month, right? That’s the great part. Will they still ask questions about the calls, and should this really be billable or not? Yes. You’re not trying to pitch them what you did for them that month. They already know. It’s the phone calls. The second thing is once we get a site up and ranked, we don’t touch it anymore. When you have a client that you’re working with every month, once you’re doing a good job and they’re getting results, you’re basically artificially inflating the reports every month to show them that you’re doing stuff in order for them to keep paying you, right?

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Joe Troyer: Does that make sense?

Daryl Rosser: Yeah. You don’t always need to but, yeah, you want to show them that we haven’t sat here and done nothing for the last six months. We’ve done something.

Joe Troyer: Exactly. The great thing is we don’t have any of that in the lead gen side of the business. Basically for three months, we push on a campaign and then we’re done, right? The only time that we hit it again is if we fall. In local, frankly, we don’t really fall that much. We’re competing with roofers and dentists, not a bunch of other affiliates.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah, yeah. I’m a fan of local for the exact same reason. It’s just so low competition compared to some of these big affiliate terms.

Joe Troyer: Yeah. I mean my team is, on the lead gen side, is actually pretty small.

Daryl Rosser: Okay.

Joe Troyer: It’s not that big. Obviously, honestly, the biggest time suck in the business is still the client facing stuff. Fulfilment is all systematized, and it’s a lot easier, I find, to systematize than the client SEO business. We don’t need approval for anything. The process is the same every single time. We go after the same set of verticals every time, so it’s not like, “Oh what should our title tags be? Or let’s do keyword research again.” No. It’s all done already.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah, okay. What’s the face time like with the clients? Like the average client, how much time do you have to spend with them?

Joe Troyer: Typically, the most time is the first month.

Daryl Rosser: Okay.

Joe Troyer: That’s just because we do an on boarding call and we set the expectation. Every agency should be doing that, no matter what they’re selling, but that’s the most. I mean probably the first month, we spend a half an hour with them. I would say everybody else, maybe it’s 10 minutes or 15 minutes a month per client.

Daryl Rosser: Awesome. For you, it adds up because you’re taking on so many clients.

Joe Troyer: Yeah. I mean over time, you build up the assets and they just keep working for you and working for you and working for you. I mean there will be times where my fulfilment team is like, “Hey man. Everything’s ranking. You haven’t brought on any new customers. What do you want me to do?” I’m like, “ehh, money’s good. How about we build a couple more sites to support what we already have?”

Daryl Rosser: Okay.

Joe Troyer: We’ll actually compete with ourselves or go after another service area within their service area.

Daryl Rosser: That makes sense. That actually ties into the next question I was curious about asking is that are you worried about, especially when you’re relying so heavily on SEO, about penalties or anything potentially damaging a lot of your network at some point?

Joe Troyer: No, no. I do things a little different. I know a lot of people, especially in the pay per lead or local affiliate stuff or lead gen stuff, a lot of them build these huge massive sites. I don’t.

Daryl Rosser: Okay.

Joe Troyer: I don’t because I’ve been slapped just like everybody else, right? I don’t want all of my eggs in one basket. I don’t want to wake up one day and go, “Crap. It’s all gone.”

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Joe Troyer: I’d rather build it a little slower and have everything diversified. Let’s say we bring in a client, let’s say, in South Florida here and they cover three counties, let’s say, for roofing, which is normal because South Florida is really long.

Daryl Rosser: Okay.

Joe Troyer: They cover from Miami to West Palm Beach, let’s say. In every major city, we’ll build a site.

Daryl Rosser: Okay. I follow the same ideology.

Joe Troyer: If one gets hit, yeah, using the same technology and if one gets hit, it’s not the end of the world.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Joe Troyer: Right? It’s not like our income just went to zero.

Daryl Rosser: Awesome, okay. Are these EMD style sites or …

Joe Troyer: We used to do EMDs. We don’t so much anymore. We keep them pretty generic though still, but they’re not EMDs.

Daryl Rosser: Okay. Are there any tricks in the ranking process? Are you guys using PBNs, citations? A basic, brief overview.

Sneaky PPL ranking tricks

Joe Troyer: Yeah. I think that, these days, I think that the site build is imperative. I think onsite, in terms of local, is super important now.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Joe Troyer: Way more than it used to be. From geotagging the images to the schema, even building out localized landing pages for the surrounding cities, I think that stuff is all super important. A lot of SEOs, I think, on a local level skip over it.

Daryl Rosser: I’m with you there, yeah.

Joe Troyer: Just like, “Yeah. It’s not so important everywhere else so, in local, it must not be either.” I, personally, disagree with that. I think that all those things are very important.

Daryl Rosser: I think you can get in the first few pages, a lot of times, with just that.

Joe Troyer: Yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure. Then, citations definitely. We do citations for every site. Then, web 2.0s, very, very easy way. I mean it’s not natural anymore. How would it be natural for you to rank on page one for any local term and any local vertical, and not have a Twitter link?

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Joe Troyer: How’s that possible?

Daryl Rosser: Yeah. It’s a huge trust signal, or a lack of trust signal if you don’t have it.

Joe Troyer: Exactly. Social and web 2.0s is definitely a big push. We do a lot of video still. Google’s been weird the last couple of months with video. It seems like videos are showing less and less in Google search. We’ve come up with some ways to leverage it, make it a little more time worthy, I guess you would say. Then, if we need it, then yeah, PBN likes. To be frank, with the cat out of the bag, we don’t even build PBNs anymore.

Daryl Rosser: Okay.

Joe Troyer: We stopped.

Daryl Rosser: You just don’t need them?

Joe Troyer: Why? In some cases, we need them. Not in every case. If we need them, I think that PBNs have become such a commodity these days, personally I believe that, why can’t you just go buy the links?

Daryl Rosser: Okay. Running the links rather than going through the hassle of having to systemize, build them up all the time and …

Joe Troyer: I mean at one time, man, we probably had 750, 800 domains in our PBNs. I mean, dude, that was the biggest nightmare ever. Managing, maintaining all of that, I mean keeping track of renewals and making sure all the hosts are all up and the site’s getting hacked and having backups for everything. I mean the list just goes on and on.

Daryl Rosser: That’s a job in itself, yeah.

Joe Troyer: I mean it’s a job for a full team. Personally, in local, I don’t really think that you need PBNs personally.

Daryl Rosser: Okay.

Joe Troyer: In competitive niches, can PBNs get you the results faster? Yes, and easier? Yes. Personally, I’d rather just buy them than having to keep up with them and maintain them.

Daryl Rosser: Got you, that makes sense. I like that you have the focus. You know that your business is about rank and size, again, leads and speaking to clients and bringing them in. Focus on that, and then outsource … Just buy links.

Joe Troyer: Yeah, exactly. A lot of them, you don’t even need them.

Daryl Rosser: Okay.

Joe Troyer: You don’t. I mean it’s local. I mean if you look, I mean it’s so crazy, if you look in some of the niches that we’re in and you look at our competitors in Google and you look at their back links, you’re looking … I use Majestic for local. I think it reports more data than anybody else, so that’s the tool that I use for local. I want as much data as possible. A lot of the niches that we go after, you’ll see our competing site has 12 back links. The number one rank …

Daryl Rosser: That’s normal.

Joe Troyer: How many … Do they have more than 12 links? Yes. They’re not reporting everything. They haven’t grabbed everything but still, right? Can you build 12 links? Do you need a PBN to rank that? No.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah, yeah.

Joe Troyer: We do play in some more aggressive verticals as well. To be frank, they don’t make us that much money. We just play in them to play with Google and see what’s happening and what will work and what we’re up against.

Daryl Rosser: Okay. Let me ask you then, I like how you approach things. I like your thinking for this stuff. Do you prefer a big, major city for a more competitive term or do you prefer just targeting smaller, less competitive cities? Easier to compete ones and target them more or a bigger, more competitive town.

Joe Troyer: Yeah, yeah. I’ll give you an example. We just picked up in a competitive niche in a very competitive city. I won’t say the niche, but I’ll say the city. We just picked up a big client in LA.

Daryl Rosser: Okay.

Joe Troyer: A lead gen client. The retainer that we got upfront is 25 grand.

Daryl Rosser: Nice.

Joe Troyer: Okay? Am I going to go put all of my time and effort into ranking for Los Angeles in the main keyword phrases? No. I set the stage for that, the LA site was the first one that we built. We optimized the crap out of everything. We’re running through our normal systems and processes, but I’m going to let that one age. It’s just going to sit on the shelf for the next six months, right? When I go to hit it later, it’s going to react much better. It’s going to take a lot of time, effort and money to rank that thing in LA when the surrounding cities, I can start getting calls in a week or two weeks.

Daryl Rosser: Exactly, yeah.

Joe Troyer: I think it really depends upon competition, but yes. When it’s super competitive, I will build the primary city site first. Then, I’ll go focus on the surrounding areas primarily.

Daryl Rosser: Get some leads coming in first, then go back to it later?

Joe Troyer: Exactly. I like to season it and get it up and going, and then I just sit it on the shelf.

Daryl Rosser: Okay. Here’s a less of a business oriented question, I guess, or pay per lead question. You’ve been going for a while now, it sounds like things are doing pretty awesome. What sort of things motivate you to keep going and keep scaling everything from now?

Joe Troyer: Yeah. I mean we’ve taken a big shift in our business over the last couple of years and in the last year, another huge shift. I got into the affiliate side of things, into our blog and our software and stuff like that. That has motivated me. Seeing customers get results, you know what I mean, is very different, as I’m sure you’ll admit. Running your own agency or pay per lead, whatever it is that you do, for a while, it gets tiresome. It gets boring. You don’t have the same thrill out of it as you had at one time.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Joe Troyer: Then, when you see your customers doing it, it reinvigorates you and it makes you want to do more of it.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah, I’m completely with you. Yeah.

Joe Troyer: That has really inspired me overall to keep pushing. The last year specifically, we’ve been going really, really, really deep with our customers. Not just the blog and a couple of courses, but we do a mastermind every quarter.

Daryl Rosser: Okay.

Joe Troyer: For a quarter, we take a group of people and I’m in there all day, every day talking with people. To see that transformation with those people over the course of a quarter, over three months, is crazy. That’s honestly what invigorates me and keeps me going and re-energizes me more than anything.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah. Actually helping people for real and seeing the impact on them.

Joe Troyer: Yeah, yeah. I mean seeing the impact is great. I’m sure that you see impact all the time from the stuff that you guys do, all the awesome content that you put out, but the closer that you get, the bigger the impact becomes as well.

Daryl Rosser: Got you, yeah.

Joe Troyer: I was always afraid, and I’ll admit this, I was always afraid to get too close because I thought it would be too much of a time suck.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Joe Troyer: Right? If I spent all my time talking with them, how do I talk to everybody on my list? Ultimately, it took me a long time to figure out, many years to figure out, that I’d rather go a lot deeper with them.

Daryl Rosser: Okay.

Joe Troyer: I get way more fulfilment out of that, because I see massive transformation. I see a lot more case studies and results than I did before.

Daryl Rosser: That’s awesome.

Joe Troyer: Just pushes me harder.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah, that’s really, really cool. Okay, so with that obviously taking up a lot of time but obviously being happy to do it, how do you stay focused all the time and be efficient with your time so you get stuff done still?

Joe Troyer: I have a wife officially and two kids. I work basically a nine to five.

Daryl Rosser: Okay, wow.

Joe Troyer: I have a couple of rules to that. I work basically a nine to five, but if I come into the office and I’m not being productive, we’ve all had those days, right? We all have those days, and I’m just not getting anywhere. I’m in a bad mood or I’m just not motivated, I leave because I don’t get anything done. Why would I dredge through it and push myself, drive myself through insanity? Just leave. You’re no good in that state anyway. Go leave, have some fun and the next day, you’ll be uber-productive. I think that that’s a big thing for people.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah, that’s cool.

Joe Troyer: I think that the first point, me working a nine to five, you were like, “What? Really?” I found even when I was working less, but I wasn’t working nine to five, that I felt like I was always working because it wasn’t structured. I had no work-life separation.

Daryl Rosser: Okay.

Joe Troyer: I felt like I was always “working” even though I really wasn’t. It was just a mental thing for me. Now, to put a start and a stop to it, even I’ll be at home lying in bed watching TV with my wife and be looking at something, but it does really help to have that separation, I think.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah, makes sense.

Joe Troyer: If people are feeling anxious like you’re always working, try to structure things a little bit different.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah. I’m one of those always … I’m, 11 p.m. at night, quickly responding to some emails and stuff. I love it, but yeah.

Joe Troyer: You go through phases where you’re like, “Man. This sucks.” If you’re in that phase, try to structure it as a nine to five or 10 to four or whatever. Then, try to give yourself a break. Even if you only do it for a month or a couple of weeks, you’ll feel a lot better about things.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah. I think that’s good advice, especially for anyone that’s really struggling with that stuff.

Joe Troyer: Definitely.

Daryl Rosser: It’s interesting having the cut-off.

Joe Troyer: Yeah.

Daryl Rosser: A lot of people, entrepreneurs especially, they don’t have it.

Joe Troyer: Yeah. I mean, and it took me a long time before that ever happened to me. Just like you, I mean going non-stop all the time, always working but, man, I want to say probably eight years basically of that and finally I was like, “All right. This is getting a little old. I need to change something up a little bit.”

Daryl Rosser: Okay. What you said before when you go into the office and you have those days where you just aren’t getting stuff done, how often does that happen? When you’re just like, “Screw it. Let’s go home.”

Joe Troyer: Maybe once a month.

Daryl Rosser: Okay. That’s realistic. Yeah, that makes sense.

Joe Troyer: I mean I think it’s important that you love what you do. I love what I do, but we all have our off-days. I think that if you make yourself push through it sometimes or you do it too often, that you can start to not love what you do. I think that’s the scariest thing as an entrepreneur is waking up and realizing that you don’t like what you do. That’s happened to me before. I’ve had to restructure things and rebuild things. Whenever I feel like that at all, or I’m just unproductive, I just go do something. The other day, I was bored. I was being unproductive. I went and test drove a Z06, just why? Because I like cars, I like going fast. Why not?

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Joe Troyer: Scared the crap out of the sales rep who was trying to hang on.

Daryl Rosser: Nice. Yeah, why not?

Joe Troyer: Do something that invigorates you or something that you like. The next day, you’ll be back to the races, so to speak.

Daryl Rosser: Okay. Do you read?

Joe Troyer: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Daryl Rosser: Do you want to … We can wrap it up with three book recommendations that …

Joe Troyer: Oh man.

Daryl Rosser: On the spot again.

Joe Troyer: Yeah, yeah. Predictable Revenue by Aaron Ross, have you heard of that one?

Daryl Rosser: I don’t know it.

Joe Troyer: Aaron Ross helped build their sales process. While he was there, added a 100 million dollars in revenue to their business.

Daryl Rosser: Wow, okay.

Joe Troyer: I just did an interview with Aaron with all of my crew on our sales process and how we’re running things. If you’re looking for help in building a sales process, definitely check that out. Awesome stuff.

Daryl Rosser: Okay.

Joe Troyer: It’s cold email, on the phone and everything else, but it’s really, really good stuff. If you’re like, “I need to get my sales game up a little bit,” check that out for sure.

Daryl Rosser: Okay, interesting.

Joe Troyer: I think that the, it’s cliché, but I think The E-Myth is very, very good.

Daryl Rosser: That’s an awesome book, yeah.

Joe Troyer: I mean I think that it’s super important to always know where you’re at in the business and where you’re going. I think a lot of times, as entrepreneurs, we just run with our head down full sprint. Then, we look up and we’re like, “Where the heck did the last six months, year, month, whatever it is, go?” I think The E-Myth helps you look at things from a top-down point of view, and understand what’s next and what you need to be working on, so that you stay on the right path.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah, for sure.

Joe Troyer: Then, what’s the more recent? Oh Gary Keller, The ONE Thing.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah, cool.

Joe Troyer: Have you read that one?

Daryl Rosser: Yeah. It’s nice and snappy.

Joe Troyer: Yeah, yeah. Good. Those would be three definitely, for sure.

Daryl Rosser: Okay. Awesome, man. Where can people find you if they want to read more about your stuff or get your call tracking thing?

Joe Troyer: Yeah, yeah, is our blog. Bunch of free content there or the YouTube channel is the best place to check us out.

Daryl Rosser: Okay, awesome. Thanks for coming on. I think you shared a heck of a lot of nuggets to someone who is interested in pay per lead stuff.

Joe Troyer: Cool, man. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

Daryl Rosser: All right, awesome. Hope you guys enjoyed this. This is a pretty awesome episode, and I’ll see you guys next week.


About Daryl Rosser

Daryl runs a six figure SEO business primarily focusing on local clients. He's extremely analytical, and his favourite ranking strategy is using PBN's.

38 Responses to “How Joe Troyer Same-Day Closes Local Clients on Pay Per Lead SEO Deals”

  • Matt  January 13, 2017 at 5:36 pm

    Awesome episode. So true about blue – white collar workers, it’s all about “over analysing things” the more you’ve been educated, which slows down even simple decisions.

    • Daryl Rosser  January 13, 2017 at 5:42 pm

      Thanks Matt. I agree, it was a great point and similar to what I’ve found from dealing with clients myself.

  • Joe Troyer  January 13, 2017 at 11:32 pm

    Thanks for having me on! If you guys have any questions let me know…

    • Daryl Rosser  January 14, 2017 at 2:49 pm

      Thanks for coming on the show and sharing so much man!

    • Jesse Murdock  February 2, 2017 at 10:21 am

      Hey Joe, I have seen you on youtube a few times. I love your ideas. Man is there one resource you could direct me towards so that I can learn to set up that killer pay per lead service! I am really good at getting people to trust me so with this one two combo I can instantly increase my cash flow! Dude you rock!

  • Ali Muhammad Iqbal  January 13, 2017 at 11:37 pm

    Thanks for sharing this.i learned a lot of about lead gen websites and what type of clients to target on lead gen and client seo.

  • Dennis c  January 14, 2017 at 12:42 am

    Great interview! I’m into ppl now and watch a lot of Joe’s stuff and even I learned a few things and got some confirmation on some questions. Great stuff. Thanks!

    • Joe  January 14, 2017 at 7:30 pm

      Very welcome Dennis!

  • Steve Stewart  January 14, 2017 at 3:50 pm

    This was the best interview I’ve seen since I found Lion Zeal. I’ve been transitioning into becoming an SEO agency recently, but now I’m going lead gen all the way.

    The specific points that stood out to me were:

    1. Faster gratification (making money faster)

    2. Blue collar focused (I’ve already been telemarketing in related niches for over 20 years, so it’ll be an easy transition)

    3. Lower risk of cancellations and chargebacks

    4. More long term business that’s built on assets that I’ll own and control, so even if someone does cancel I can simply sell the leads to their competition and not miss a payday.

    5. Being able to avoid the risk of working on property owned by someone else.

    And much, much more.

    I’ve already written down all the key points and steps. I’ll be on the phone next week.

    Thanks, Joe!

    • Joe  January 14, 2017 at 7:30 pm

      Glad you found it valuable Steve!

  • kaushik Dutta  January 14, 2017 at 6:26 pm

    Hi Joe,
    I am making a PPL sie. I need few pieces of information which will help me a lot.

    1. How do you get the local address for making citations, GEO tagging, Schema etc..

    2. How many businesses get leads from your one site ?

    3. can you refer any economical call tracking system ?


    • Steve Stewart  January 15, 2017 at 12:23 am

      Hi Kaushik,

      I’m obviously not Joe, but I think I may be able to answer your questions.

      #1. Since you’re getting the customer before you build the site, you don’t have to worry about it until then. Once you get the customer you can get their local address then.

      #2. He said in the video that if a business tells him that they can’t handle anymore new leads in a month then he’ll find a second, third, etc business to take them, so the answer would be “as many businesses as you need to in order to sell your leads.”

      #3. I believe Joe has his own call tracking software. Just Google “Joe Troyer call tracking”. There are also other companies you can use. I’ve used Callfire in the past.

      Hope that helps you.



  • Joe  January 14, 2017 at 7:29 pm

    Hey Kaushik

    Happy to help…

    1. How does any business get an address… there’s so many ways. Pick one.

    2. Depends on the niche and the city we target. I have sites that get 50 calls a week and sites that get 5.

    3. Analytic Call Tracking & twilio. Will give you the best long term and scalable solution. (I own it)

  • Steve Stewart  January 15, 2017 at 12:10 am


    Regarding cold email outreach, can you recommend any reputable emailing platforms? Also, do you bulk email or do you pre-qualify by manually looking for a certain type of business, as in the size of the business, how much they’re earning per year, etc? Finally, do you have an example of a script you use?



  • Steve Stewart  January 15, 2017 at 12:25 am

    Hey Joe!

    One more thing, you’re giving a BIG discount on your call tracking software to all the Lion Zeal people, right?


    • Joe Troyer  January 16, 2017 at 2:17 pm

      Hey Steve, took me a bit to find this because we never discount Analytic Call Tracking – here’s 30 days for free to get your feet wet and ensure it’s the right fit:

      • Steve Stewart  January 16, 2017 at 2:39 pm

        Awesome! Thanks, Joe!

  • Steve Stewart  January 15, 2017 at 3:13 am


    Just thought of something else. Do you have a pay per lead contract or example contract that you can share? I was listening to the video again and it dawned on me that I really should have something in place that defines exactly what a lead consists of per the agreement, price, quantity, etc.

    Much appreciated!


  • Steve Stewart  January 16, 2017 at 12:46 am

    Hi Joe,

    I found a lot of answers on my own, but one I could really use some advice on is how do you define exactly what a lead consists of? Examples, Name, Address, Phone, Email, minimum duration of a call like 30 seconds, etc? What do you deem to be a legitimate lead?

    I’d really appreciate your advice.



  • Joe Troyer  January 16, 2017 at 2:19 pm

    We charge for “intent” in service area and calling for their services.

    That being said 90%+ of everything over 45 seconds then is billable…

    • Steve Stewart  January 16, 2017 at 2:41 pm

      Perfect. That’s exactly what I needed to know. I’ll be on the phone tomorrow. 🙂

      Thanks again!

  • fernando vela  January 16, 2017 at 8:36 pm

    Hey Joe!

    Thanks for the great info! Where can I go to sign up for the paid courses and/or the mastermind program?

    – Fernando

  • Joeseph  January 16, 2017 at 9:04 pm

    Hey Joe,

    Thanks for the awesome info and your time. Just had a quick question.

    So im no stranger to cold calling, closed a couple SEO deals by picking up the phone but i have watched a couple videos from you and realized PPL is where i want to go.

    So my question is, when you are selling first before having leads come in, how do you get the client to pay you up front without them expecting to pay you at the end of each month after the see all the leads coming in? Because you said you charge in some niches $125 per call so how do you figure you want to deliver 10 calls at $125 each and get them to pay you that upfront? I am just confused on what to say on the phone when you want to sell PPL first before you have leads coming in. If my question is confusing i can reword it

    Thanks in advance Joe

    • Steve Stewart  January 21, 2017 at 2:32 am

      Hi Joeseph,

      I’m obviously not Joe, but may be able to help. He does talk about this in the video. The “block of 10” seemed kind of like a fall back position if the prospect balked at taking more.

      I wouldn’t be afraid of asking for a retainer. You ask for a retainer with SEO, right? If you’re doing TV, radio, classified ads, Yellow Pages, direct mail or practically any other type of advertising, they’re going to make you pay upfront and give you ZERO guarantees, right?

      You’re giving them a signed contract stating that you’ll deliver 10 quality leads to them. You’re offering them guaranteed RESULTS for their money! That’s almost unheard of!

      So don’t be afraid to ask for a retainer. Just be sure to deliver once you’ve been paid.

      Hope that helps.

  • Steve Stewart  January 17, 2017 at 12:20 pm

    Hey Joe,

    I just thought of something else. What size cities do you tend to target? Is there a minimum population metro area that you’d start at?

    With your “L.A.” example I’m assuming that nothing’s too big. I’m just wondering if you have a cutoff point where you’d consider an area to be too small? I was just about to start keyword research but I’m not exactly sure where to begin.



  • Thierry  January 18, 2017 at 10:10 pm

    Hi Joe,

    Do you send directly the calls that you obtain with your video or your website ranked on Google to your clients by redirecting them to their own company call services ou do you sell the leads that you have yourself on the phone and who actually want to hire the company you’re in contract with and are veriefied clients for them ? (sorry if my question is not very clear I’m French…)

    If you just sell them the calls without knowing if they will convert, how do you determine the conversion rate they will have ? Are they gonna pay you for calls that won’t convert into clients, or have you a way to check that ?


    • Steve Stewart  January 21, 2017 at 2:37 am


      Joe explains how to find out how to do this in the video. He asks them apx how many people who call out of 10 will get an estimate. Then he asks how many jobs out of 10 estimates he’ll get.

      I’d watch the video again. I’ve watched it like 4 times now and have pages of notes that I’m going through and separating so I have rebuttals on one pages, phone script on another, etc. The rest I’ll have to figure out as I go, I guess.

      Good luck!

  • Thierry  January 21, 2017 at 12:50 pm

    Thanks Steve for your useful answer !

    I’ve first downloaded the video and converted it to mp3 so that I can listen to it in my car, but it will be easier for me to not miss something by watching the video, I will check again ! Lots of very interesting ideas to apply…

    Thanks and good luck !

    • Steve Stewart  January 21, 2017 at 2:44 pm

      You’re welcome, Thierry. I listen to it with a notebook and pen so I can pause or rewind it, write down exactly what was said, and then I have it and can sort out the notes later.

      Other helpful videos are on YouTube from Matt Stack (who bought Joe’s course) who’s having success. Also, I like the interviews that Brian Burt does with Stephanie Franklin. There are two of them. They’re over an hour each, but have some useful information.

      I think the best thing to do is like Joe said, though. Just get the basic script down, start sending cold emails to businesses in the niches he said to target, and then follow-up on every single email with a phone call. I know of others who are selling SEO this way and are doing VERY well.

      Good luck to you, too!

  • Thierry  January 21, 2017 at 10:50 pm

    Thanks for the links Steve, you can also see a lot of stuff here :

    you can have a trial for their courses for $1 for 35 days with a lot of great content, check this out !


    • Steve Stewart  January 21, 2017 at 11:10 pm

      Thanks! I’m already a lifetime member of Local Profit Breakthrough. 🙂

  • Chandler Smith  February 7, 2017 at 7:31 pm

    Just purchased and setup ACT after watching this.

  • Bogdan Osipov  February 27, 2017 at 3:20 pm

    Awesome interview guys, I really learned a lot from this on pay per lead and business in general.
    Joe, do you mind sharing a basic PPL contract template?
    I would really appreciate it, so far I haven’t found any decent ones online…
    Thanks a lot!

    • Daryl Rosser  March 5, 2017 at 6:01 am

      Glad you enjoyed it Bogdan!

  • Paulo  April 17, 2017 at 5:29 pm

    I used this interview to get my very first client a $25 per call for a local painting and decorating contractors (so thank you!). I’m using a blend of SEO and adwords to generate phone calls for this client but the search volume is so low (I guess people tend to paint their own houses) but that’s not the point.

    I am on the verge of a second client a plastic surgeon however he is reluctant to pay up front however this is a better niche which I charge more money at $75 per lead however the client does not want to pay upfront, so I will have to set up a website, social profiles, video marketing, etc in a niche that is highly competitive (liposuction) and shell out, what if he decides to change his mind? oh yeah and he also wants to keep the site that I send him leads from?

    I want to take the deal because it’s my second client but I kind of feel like this guy is trying to screw me.

    Can you let me know if this is normal and if you have any problems getting money from clients.

    Joe – I don’t know if you check this but I would really appreciate some advice.

    Kind Regards

    • Daryl Rosser  April 21, 2017 at 9:44 am

      That’s awesome man, congrats.

      As for your question, personally, I wouldn’t waste a minute on them if they’re not willing to invest any money themselves.

  • Rick Mueller  June 10, 2017 at 8:13 pm

    Hey Daryl & Joe, great interview and info on pay per call. I didn’t catch it but does Joe have a course he sells outlining his process & system? Thanks.

  • Rob  January 19, 2018 at 11:53 am

    Awesome interview Daryl.

    I have this interview bookmarked and listen to it everyday as I do the hard grind of building out my first PPL site. I even have a public journal on my blog about my journey.

    I will be taking YOUR advice Daryl of testing local keyword volume and conversion with PPC adwords first. That is GOLD.

    The results from ppc will lead me to what to focus on in SEO (even though I am going to carpet bomb the serps with mass page builder style sites.)

    Keep up the good work.