How To 2-3X The Revenue From Your Existing Traffic Using CRO with Kurt Philip

Do you want to make more money from your existing traffic?

In this episode, you will learn advanced tips to optimize your sites and increase your conversion rates. You can do this for affiliate sites, or even local sites as Kurt teaches you how to get up to a 100% increase in your conversion rates.

Kurt also discusses building a team, systemizing things and scaling your business up to the next level.

Watch it here:

Or Subscribe to the show on iTunes.

Looking to increase the conversion rate of your existing traffic?  Download The 9 Step Conversion Rate Optimization Checklist for Affiliate Sites 

How to contact Kurt

Topics Covered:

05:13 – Learning to get started with CRO

09:30 – How to get a 30% – 50% increase in revenue

11:00 – How to increase your affiliate click-through-rate to Amazon products by 60%

15:31 – Important changes that you should make to optimize your site

20:48 – How to assemble and scale up a team

25:01 –  Learning to create efficient business systems

34:35 – Kurt’s CRO tipsto optimize your site

44:32 – The best book to read if you want to learn about CRO – Kurts recommendation


Daryl Rosser: Hey guys, Daryl Rosser here. Welcome back to another episode of the Lion Zeal Show. I’m here with Kurt Philip, aka the CRO Guy, and we’re talking CRO. Okay?

So you guys are out there, and you have affiliate sites, even a local site where you work with clients and stuff like that, we’re giving you basic tips you can … actually advanced tips you can go out there and start optimizing those sites and get up to even like 100% conversion rate increase just by following the advice that is in this interview.

We also talk a little bit about building up a team, systemizing things and really scaling up. So very interesting interview. I highly recommend you guys watch it because if you already have sites with traffic on it why not make more money out of what you’ve already got. So let’s get into it. Enjoy.

Hey man, thank you for joining me. It’s awesome to have you on the show.

Kurt Philip: What’s up. Good to see you again, mate.

Daryl Rosser: So for anyone that doesn’t know you, didn’t see the last episode, can you introduce yourself, what it is you do?

Kurt Philip: Yeah, I mean, I’m Kurt. I’m the CRO Guy. At the CRO Guy we do conversion optimization for lead gen, affiliate, and e-commerce websites.

Daryl Rosser: Okay.

Kurt Philip: If your readers have seen my last content. I’ve done a bunch of different models from SEO affiliate, e-commerce-

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Kurt Philip: And lead gen and client consulting. So been around a long time, been around a lot of different business models, but now we’re doing pure conversion optimization for SEOs now that we’ve got a lot of experience in that field.

Daryl Rosser: That’s awesome. How do you become the CRO Guy from your background. You’ve done all sorts of stuff right?

Kurt Philip: Yeah, exactly. So built, sold, bought a bunch of different e-commerce, affiliated lead gen sites, and this whole purpose of getting into them in the first place was to SEO them, or CRO them, or whatever. I saw that I was getting pretty consistent returns on what I was doing, and then I saw this whole affiliate investment niche pop out of nowhere.

People were buying these affiliate sites and now putting them in like an investment fund and making 30%-50% returns on their income. Then I was like, “Okay, there’s big money coming in here.” There were these big investment firms buying up affiliate sites. These dodgy affiliate sites that we were building when we were younger, reviewing Amazon products and stuff, so then I was like, “All right, there’s definitely some demand for this at the moment.” Then in the last six months it’s really grown to be quite a business now.

Daryl Rosser: That’s awesome. How did you start, like yourself, how did you learn CRO in the beginning because you’re an SEO guy, a client guy right?

Kurt Philip: I guess it’s just a progression of being constantly in the game, right? We’re always looking for opportunity, we’re always looking for new business ideas, and if you’ve got that entrepreneurial spirit you’re always looking for something.

I worked for a couple start-ups. You might have heard of LeadSpring, me and Matt Diggity started that one a few years ago, and when I was working there I was in charge of buying, selling, working with affiliate partners, CROing the websites with Optimize Thee, and maximizing how much we’re making from our SEO-

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Kurt Philip: So that when we sold those sites we get the maximum value, and then out of that I developed a system that was pretty consistent and repeatable. So then I just started offering it to some friends in the industry, and then I was getting them good results, and I was like, “Hold on a minute. Why don’t I just create a service out of this?” Now, that was pretty hard going from a fully passive affiliate at the time with a few consulting clients, but they were pretty automated to then running a full-on agency again where I’m in contact with clients every day.

I’m managing client’s expectations, but it’s been good. It’s been a nice change to be away from affiliate. Affiliate money puts you in an interesting psychology, but yes.

Daryl Rosser: What’s the benefits of downsize of both, of like affiliate versus clients in agency?

Kurt Philip: It depends on your personality, but you can go … I mean there was a year or two where I didn’t even touch any of my affiliate sites, and they were making $5,000-$10,000/month-

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Kurt Philip: -pretty consistently. Yeah, when you’ve got that sort of money coming in, and you’re single, and you’re in Asia, and you’ve got no accountability you can get up to quite a lot of mischief, and with me I mean it was fine, and I would never change it for the world but turning 30 I sort of wanted something a bit more … I don’t know I didn’t really have anything I was creating that was giving any sort of validation anymore-

Daryl Rosser: Okay.

Kurt Philip: -because you know how it was like with some of these sites you don’t have to touch for a year or two, I was just getting up in the morning, cycling 30-50 kilometers a day, and just finding shit to do to fill my time with. So that when I started CROGuy it was cool to get back into something-

Daryl Rosser: Like have an impact almost.

Kurt Philip: Yeah, having some impact and because it’s such a cool business model where people see their boost in income straight away once we started doing work on it, it was cool to see how much it helps people out I guess, yeah.

Daryl Rosser: Let’s just go straight into the strategy. That’s the part that people really want to see. So how do you start with CRO? If someone’s gotten their first ROI, maybe it’s a couple thousand dollars a month, whatever what’s the first thing they need to do?

Kurt Philip: Yeah, and that’s the cool thing. It’s very easy to get started. Most people finish their website, they make it look cool, they make sure it looks okay judging by what other people are doing, I’m guessing.

They don’t really have any metric to measure why their site is finished, but for me when I get a website that’s FCO, it’s ranking well, it’s got a good recurring income what we’ll do is we’ll then check heat maps on there.

Now there’s a few different heat maps software. That’ll be Hotjar’s my favorite. Then we’ve VWO, Optimizely they both have heat software built in. Not as feature packed as Hotjar because that’s specifically just heat map software, and then there’s also heat maps for WordPress, which is good for a lot of people just on one or two sites. You can record five pages, most people 80% of your income comes from those top 5 pages.

Daryl Rosser: Absolutely, yeah.

Kurt Philip: That’s all you really need. Once you’ve got that on there you get to see where the users are clicking, where they’re looking around, and then you can see how far they’re scrolling around. It gives you an idea on where to start testing because you don’t want to test an area of the website that’s not getting any action otherwise-

Daryl Rosser: Gotcha, okay.

Kurt Philip: -you’ll never get a result. So that’s how I tell people to get started, and then it’s like, “Okay, so what do we do when we’ve got that information?”

Daryl Rosser: Yeah, I was gonna ask that. It’s like, “Cool, I’ve got a heat map. Now what?”

Kurt Philip: You want an answer. You want to be like, “What button do I test and what correction?”

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Kurt Philip: And that’s completely site dependent. There’s no clear answer to it, and that’s why I say get started with heat maps now. Some good things to think about is what does your site look like on mobile? Most of the sites we look at, like we’ve processed, I don’t even know over 100-150 something like that, no one actually … no I can’t say no one, very few, I’m talking like less than 5%, actually have spent time on developing the mobile side of their site.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Kurt Philip: And what I mean is it’s not making sure it’s responsive. That’s just a given, but like making sure that how does the site actually function on mobile?

Daryl Rosser: Okay.

Kurt Philip: If you want comparison tables for instance if it’s an Amazon review site how does that function? Does it actually fulfill the need that it’s supposed to as if it does on desktop? Does it show all the benefits and features that the users need to see that they need to make an educated decision to … if you just got an image and the product name is that really enough?

Daryl Rosser: Sure.

Kurt Philip: Yeah making sure that everything is looking okay. Now, I see a lot of sites that they’ve got a TablePress because that’s an easy one. You don’t need to know how to code. They’ve got a TablePress, plugin setup, they have the table at the top, and when you look at it on mobile all you can see is the product image, and the product image isn’t even linked to Amazon, and you can’t even click anything.

Daryl Rosser: Wow. Okay.

Kurt Philip: That’s probably the most common first big win we can see. So yeah I’m not going to go into much more detail on TablePress because there’s a million things I could say, but just check out your site on mobile.

There’s a ton of different web apps out there that can show you what your site looks like on mobile, or just get your mobile out and play around with it. Now, a lot of people think that it’s only mobile traffic, it’s not as important as desktop. Well, if we look at a lot of sites these days, as you know it’s like something like 70% of-

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Kurt Philip: Up to 70%-80%-

Daryl Rosser: 60%-70% yeah.

Kurt Philip: Yeah, exactly. In some niches its higher, in some niches it’s lower, but at the buyer intent these days everyone’s buying online.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Kurt Philip: Everyone is buying online. Now, look at the best apps out there and look how they function. Look how their flow is. Look how easy it is for them to go from clicking to buy a product through to the end of the cycle, and try to imitate these apps like Pizza Hut and so on that have a very good … you know, the least amount of clicks you can make someone go from end to end the higher chance you will have of converting them.

Daryl Rosser: That’s why Amazon is so awesome when you just go on it. It’s like I like this, buy, done.

Kurt Philip: Not too many details. Exactly. It’s already got your history and everything. So yeah like for instance to get away from an affiliate site, it’s like an e-commerce site. I work with some bigger sites, and they haven’t even spent any time on mobile. So we come in and we just focus on mobile, and then we get 30%-40%-50% increase in revenue just from doing that.

Daryl Rosser: Wow.

Kurt Philip: Then we go and tweak desktop too. Yeah, it’s really fun, and it’s really cool to be part of an industry that’s kind of underserved. Now, there are the big enterprise conversion optimization companies that work with a lot of big, big companies because obviously they make more money, but none really serving the small to medium-sized businesses-

Daryl Rosser: Sure.

Kurt Philip: Which is something that we’re doing at the moment so.

Daryl Rosser: That’s awesome. So you set up the heat maps, and you kind of mentioned that you would definitely start with the mobile. That makes a lot of sense to me. What other big things are there to change. I’ve some people play around with things that I’m sure have an impact. You know better than I do, but in my opinion are probably not the most important thing to start this. Do you have like a critical hits, start with this first?

Kurt Philip: What type of site are we talking about? Are we talking lead gen and affiliate, e-commerce?

Daryl Rosser: We’ll say affiliate.

Kurt Philip: Okay, so affiliate’s probably the most underserved category of sites we work on. No one really has any information on affiliate sites. It’s all e-commerce pretty much. Any big conversion optimization blogs out there it’s primarily e-commerce because that’s the one you can tract from end to end. The affiliate is the biggest ones we get increases from.

Daryl Rosser: Okay.

Kurt Philip: So the thing, and it’s so surprising. I just got a report when I came in here that we just had increase in clicks to Amazon of 60% on this one site.

Daryl Rosser: Nice.

Kurt Philip: All we did, the one single thing we did, we changed the call-to-action button. The text on the call-to-action button.

Daryl Rosser: Nice.

Kurt Philip: It’s hard to believe but I’m seeing it every single day. I remember I was talking to one client awhile ago, and he was like, “I’m not paying you that much for you to change the button to green.” But you’re not paying for that, you’re paying for the data, the reporting, the tracking of the order.

Daryl Rosser: Absolutely, yeah.

Kurt Philip: So test different call-to-actions. Think about, let’s just say you’ve got a dog trimming lead gen website. People can come on and book a dog trimming session. Try different call-to-actions like, book session, book now, trim my dog. Just try all different variations of it, and see what converts better. There will always be a big gap in different texts. Now, if you keep finding those windows over time, and obviously kill off the split testing, killing off, not the low-hanging fruit, but I guess like the losers-

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Kurt Philip: Then you’re gonna constantly have these increases in compounding gains over time, and that’s how you get the 100%-200% increase in conversion just by constantly testing and testing and testing. The one issue I think a lot of people have is not having a lot of traffic.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah, that’s true.

Kurt Philip: We just took on a site today that’s got on one page, like 20,000-30,000 views/month, so we can run a test every … I mean I can probably get a conclusion on that test by tomorrow.

Daryl Rosser: Awesome.

Kurt Philip: Then run another test, and then run another test. It’s awesome for the client, it’s awesome for us, and it gets us results very quickly, whereas a site that gets 100/day might take three to six months to get a result for one test.

Daryl Rosser: Oh really, okay.

Kurt Philip: So if you’ve got traffic definitely go heavy into split testing like with VWO or Optimizely. If you haven’t got a lot of traffic a good strategy that no one’s really discussed before is get a snapshot of how your site’s performing now with about 500-600 views in HotJar or VWO, and it’ll tell you what bands you’re getting, what click through rates, and where they’re clicking-

Daryl Rosser: Sure.

Kurt Philip: Make a change to your call-to-actions and your button colors and your images, then stop the old heat map, and then get another recording, and then you’ll have two comparisons-

Daryl Rosser: Oh okay.

Kurt Philip: -of how it’s performing side-by-side. That’s what we do for smaller traffic sites too, and sure a lot of variance comes in with time of the week and all that sort of stuff, but it’s better than not doing it. Then you just track the leads or the calls after that to follow up with that.

Daryl Rosser: Interesting. What’s the most surprising result you’ve got from one of your tests?

Kurt Philip: What do you mean by surprising?

Daryl Rosser: Like you just didn’t expect it to have such a big influence or no influence maybe. I’m putting you on the spot.

Kurt Philip: No, no. Well, here’s a good answer sometimes we get a 50% increase in clicks to like a call-to-action just from changing a size of an image.

Daryl Rosser: Okay.

Kurt Philip: So I’ll always test, let’s just say it’s 200 pixels wide, I’ll test 400 pixels wide and leave the call-to-action exactly the same. Then, yeah, we might get like a 50% increase in clicks. We’ll go try the exact same thing on another page on the site, and it’s just flat. So-

Daryl Rosser: Interesting.

Kurt Philip: -one thing that I say quite often is, “Always test before you make a change.” I think a lot of people will get a winning result on one page and roll it out site-wide. But then what happens is this site will be up, the one you tested, and they’re like, “Why am I not making any money?” Well, you’ve got to test every page.

You’ve got to test every single … like even if we know a page needs a comparison table, let’s just say it doesn’t have a comparison table, we’ll still test that so we can show the client the data of what the increases were.

That sort of thing. So yeah, that’s the most surprising thing. We’ve got some sites where we mostly work on the top 5 pages for a client where every single page has a different call-to-action and color, or table looks different, and some clients don’t like that. They’re like, “How am I supposed to roll this out next time?” Well, we’ll test it. You just have to test, and I guess there’s a difference between a good looking site and a site that converts. There’s a big difference between the two.

Daryl Rosser: It’s interesting. Are there any standards that still kind of apply generally to like cost affiliates? You do a lot of Amazon affiliate sites, right? Is there anything that’s like usually similar, you still obviously have to test it, but is there certain things that stand out as like similar across the board?

Kurt Philip: Yeah, use call-to-action buttons. Use simple call-to-action buttons. We see a lot of sites that have view pricing, info, and features on Amazon. They have that as their call-to-action. It must have been on a course or something that people took. I don’t know, just do it simple like click for price, or view price, or view pricing, or something.

You’ve got to call them to action. It might just have the name of the product in the call-to-action in text and not a button, and sometimes you can’t even see the button. Make it very evident where the call-to-action is. Make it very contrast color so that it stands out, have high-res images. Sometimes we see some comparison tables with 100×100 easy Amazon images that they’ve pulled in.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Kurt Philip: People aren’t in a store where they can pick the product up, feel it, play around with it.

Daryl Rosser: Absolutely, yeah.

Kurt Philip: The only reason they’re clicking that is because the image emotionally connects with them, right?

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Kurt Philip: So use, I don’t know, usually between 250-300 pixels is a good size for product images and comparison tables.

Daryl Rosser: Okay.

Kurt Philip: Try to show … like when you’ve got a comparison table what is the reason that someone would choose one, or two, or three? Let me ask you that.

Daryl Rosser: Numerous I guess. It could be price, it could be features.

Kurt Philip: Yes, exactly. Price or features. So 90% of comparison tables we see just have the product image, the name, and editor rating. So it doesn’t give the user the chance to make an educated decision on what one they’re gonna click.

So add some benefits and features into the table. Find very contrasting products that, maybe this is the cheapest, maybe this is the most expensive, maybe this is the highest quality, maybe this is the most durable, and give them all options so you hit every consumer psychology that’s coming in on that keyword so you’ll get one of them for something.

Then have a rave review where they can tab down the page and get a full bigger one if they need more convincing wherever you’ve got your text, but most pages just need a comparison table at the top. That’s enough for most people. If they’re looking for best dog trimmers, and it’s there they’ll just click it. They don’t need to-

Daryl Rosser: Yeah, most people aren’t going to read this whole thing.

Kurt Philip: They won’t, but maybe 10% will click down, will tab down to that. The ones that need a final push, but yeah get comparison tables on your sites.

Daryl Rosser: What other sites have you worked on? Like, you’ve done affiliate of course, you’ve done some e-commerce.

Kurt Philip: Man, yeah e-commerce is more of a longer game, so we have to work with bigger clients, but yeah normally that’s like a three to six month type job because we need to analyze the data, and do small tweaks. It’s just a lot more complicated than a simple affiliate site.

Daryl Rosser: Sure.

Kurt Philip: Lead gen sites we have a really, really good process for at the moment where we have this really efficient lead capture process where we sort of have game-ified the contact form. So instead of typically on a lead gen site having just a contact form down the side of your site like, “Contact Us,” you make it about the user. What do you want?

So then we have this really cool lead capture that’s like right in the header, and it’s asking the question, let’s just say it’s dog trimmers, then we’ll have the first question as, “How old is your dog?” Boom, it gets them invested, and once you’re invested in that process, and we have those auto-slide really quick lead capture, then we start capturing the information on a booking.

So then it game-ifies it. Once they actually started the process, like a tripwire, then they’re invested in completing the whole process, and conversion rates are always like 50%-100% quite consistently with-

Daryl Rosser: So it’s like a multi-platform right? Is that what you’re saying? Like just ask initially just, “How old is your dog?”

Kurt Philip: Yeah.

Daryl Rosser: Or something relevant.

Kurt Philip: And then you have committed to start interacting with the site, and then even if you’re asking, “What is your name, number, phone?” We only ever show one lead capture at a time, and it’s just like …

Daryl Rosser: Interesting.

Kurt Philip: It just shows one at a time. Especially if it’s on the phone, it’s sort of like you can just click down. No one enters a form where they enter their name, email, what their message is. So we just try to understand why the consumer’s coming in, and then we’ll just get them to invest in that lead capture process, and it’s usually a little higher, yeah.

Daryl Rosser: Oh, I like that. That’s kinda cool. I know you tested it. I can see it working on like a cleaning company that comes up, like, “How big is the room?” It has pictures, visuals.

Kurt Philip: It’s already got them ordered so you can just go and then you could have something at the end and just generate your free report, and then click it, but really it’s a lead capture, but you can just give them a little bit of value in order to complete that last step, whatever. It could be top natural cleaning products you can make at home.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah, yeah.

Kurt Philip: Give them an ebook that generates after they give their information. Then boom, you sell their lead on, and then you’re done.

Daryl Rosser: That’s awesome, man. Another thing I’m curious about, maybe this are one of the CRO tips you can get into later, but you’ve built up a decent sized team while you been doing this. Do you have any advice for anyone whose going out there any trying to build their own team up, and especially agency guys that’s very team reliant? Do you have any tips for assembling an army?

Kurt Philip: We have this really good … it’s really good these days that Odesk has evolved to Upwork. The amount of data they’ve got on their contractors now is amazing, so we can find really good contractors with great reviews, that have done a shit load of work, that have great reviews-

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Kurt Philip:-very quickly. When you have a business that has such margins as CRO that means you don’t have to hire like the old days, a Filipino for $5/hour. I have a Filipino on $20/hour I hired, but he’s an absolute gun. So I just hire really good people.

Daryl Rosser: That’s awesome.

Kurt Philip: Honestly, I used to have a crazy, complex process for hiring. All I do now is I jump onto Upwork, I put my ad up. When you’re going through the criteria I select the most expensive people with over 1,000 hours of work, with over five stars. I just find the best people, then when it comes to the process it’ll say at the end 10 recommended people. I get those 10 recommended people. I just get the 10 recommended people. That algorithm’s found the best for what I want.

Daryl Rosser: Wow, okay.

Kurt Philip: I’ll interview them, and then every time I’ve been able to find someone. So then as the business is evolving, and I can see more positions … because as we grow obviously more positions become clear, and then we can put someone in those positions because we have more … like, I have a person just fully in charge of business systems now, and finding better ways to automate the business and create a process behind it. So I had to find that person.

I have a person that’s just doing accounting. Obviously you need accounting. I have a front-end developer, a back-end developer, a UI designer, and I have all these very specific people now because I’ve got the end game in mind. It’s gonna be very big in a few years, so while we don’t have a lot of them on full-time now, when we do start to ramp up … every month we’re probably growing 50% every single month.

Daryl Rosser: Cool.

Kurt Philip: We can start to increase their hours, and then obviously when it gets to the point we’ll put someone under them, they can train them up, and then.

Daryl Rosser: Cool, man. I’m curious what you’re trying to aim for. If you say, like in five year’s time what is your goal with the business?

Kurt Philip: I probably want to exit in five years to be honest. So I’m doing it all very with the end in mind.

Daryl Rosser: Okay.

Kurt Philip: I’m setting up a business that’s all very sellable, I’m setting up a lot of business systems and processes, and having it all mapped out with the … for a staff that you bring on that does this, and it has 10 steps that you have to complete this task, and everything can be packaged and sold at a later date. That’s the plan, whether or not I do that, I might love it too much, and it might be too good of an earner where I don’t.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Kurt Philip: But I just want to educate the market. There’s not really anyone out there doing this in our industry, the black hat gray hat industry.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah, there’s no one.

Kurt Philip: There’s a few big guys in the e-commerce industry, but it’s really cool to be the only one in our industry, in our close circle that is doing it. So I just want to do a really good job.

I just want to have a really good name, and it’s not hard once you have a good system in place to do it. It can take a bit of time sometimes, but yeah usually like the third or fourth variation of a site that we do will be a winner. If it’s not the first or second. So we’ll always get there it’s just having the patience and consistency to fulfill those changes on the site.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Kurt Philip: To record, and report, and have it all tied in. That’s the key to it all.

Daryl Rosser: That’s cool, man. I 100% agree. Systems, I think, is a good topic because wherever you’re doing CRO, SCRO, ads it doesn’t matter you need systems in place. How do you create your systems? Are you personally involved in that, or do you train your people up and they do it?

Kurt Philip: So I’ve got an operations partner.

Daryl Rosser: Okay, wow.

Kurt Philip: They do all the systems. I’m just good at getting shit going, and making shit happen. I might not be the cleanest, I might not be the … I mean I had 180 PBNs a few years ago because I was footprints galore, right?

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Kurt Philip: But I just got it done, and I made a lot of money in the meantime. So for me it’s like I’ll just get shit going, put someone in place, and they can build the system. So when she came in to build the systems she sort of said to me, “Okay, so when you do this what are the steps?”

Daryl Rosser: Okay.

Kurt Philip: and then, “When you do this what are the steps? Do you need to be doing this?” She would ask me all the time. She’d be sitting there, and she’d be like, “Do you need to be doing this?” And I’d be like, “Not really,” and she’s like, “Okay, so let’s write the steps down.” And we just always … anything that I don’t need to be involved in the process, then we’ll just remove me from, and we’ll put it into the system.

There’s a great software that I’ve just found that’s amazing called The Pulse, and it’s the worst branding ever. It’s the most awesome piece of software. It’s everything, you can go in have every step mapped out, and you can mark it as done, or pending, or whatever, and it’s really easy to get an overview of the full company and see where every staff is, and what they’re doing every step of the way.

Daryl Rosser: You just open it up and just all online.

Kurt Philip: Exactly, and you can then also with IFTT, actually I forgot about IFTT, but Zapier can plug into it. So it can do triggers. When that one goes like that it can fulfill a task. So it’s really cool.

Daryl Rosser: Awesome.

Kurt Philip: I think if you have a minute to jump on it and have a look at it, but I moved over to that from a recommendation from the SEO Mastermind last week, and I’ve already fully implemented it for my whole business.

Daryl Rosser: Really?

Kurt Philip: Yeah. I had some very sleepless nights in the last week. I wasn’t sleeping at all. So that’s how we keep track of the process. Then when we bring new staff in we assign that process to them, they log in, and they click, you know it might be “Integrate VWO.” They’ll click it, it then has the steps in detail how they integrate into VWO, they then mark it as done, they go to the next step.

They go click it, and it pulls up the steps, and it’s just like you don’t even have to train anymore because you just come in, and the whole step-by-step-

Daryl Rosser: That’s insane.

Kurt Philip: Then if they have a problem they can mark it as “stuck,” and then I’ll get alerted that they’re stuck on something, or one of the other managers or whatever can come in, and it’s just a really good way to manage your systems. Again, it’s like with the end in mind of like maybe at 100 staff members or whatever.

Daryl Rosser: That’s awesome, man. How do you prioritize which positions to have? You’ve got a lot of people working doing all different stuff how do you prioritize that?

Kurt Philip: I guess as you step more and more out of the business you still end up managing stuff.

Daryl Rosser: Absolutely.

Kurt Philip: Like right now I’m still very in the business when it comes to sales like at the SEO conference, and email, and writing content, and doing video and stuff like that, but I enjoy doing that.

Daryl Rosser: Sure.

Kurt Philip: So I like being a part of it. Ideally I would just be doing video and blog posts, which is more of a like three to six month plan than just putting content out, which even that I can remove myself from, but it’s just as I remove myself from it you’ll find positions to put people into.

So soon I’ll be getting a sales person on because pretty much all the sales funnel now that I’ve created is pretty repeatable. I can get someone else to do it for sure, and then obviously if they have a question I would just mark it in the back end, and then I’ll come in and answer it or something like that. Was that your question?

Daryl Rosser: Yeah, how do you prioritize positions to hire

Kurt Philip: So yeah, obviously certain areas will need more focus and more time involved. So whenever I’m spending a lot of time on something that means that I need to put a staff somewhere right? So when you can’t be light, and get up in the morning, and just click a few emails, and whatever when I find I’m grinding away on something I’m like, “All right, there’s a problem in this business right here. I need to get someone in.” Then we’ll map out the process, and we’ll hire someone, or just give that position to someone else. So like someone else in the company might be showing some promise in some other area because not everyone’s like a machine right? So someone else might show some promise, and then they can take on that task.

That’s what I’ve been doing lately is every time I spend more than like an hour or two I start to get pissed off and frustrated, and I’m like, “All right, let’s map this out. This doesn’t need to be done.”

Daryl Rosser: That’s cool. What is your biggest problem today in your business?

Kurt Philip: Staff, I think.

Daryl Rosser: Okay.

Kurt Philip: I’ve had a lot of businesses with staff, but not to this size.

Daryl Rosser: How big is it by the way? The team?

Kurt Philip: About 10 or so now.

Daryl Rosser: Okay.

Kurt Philip: So I haven’t had a lot of … I’m not a very emotional guy. I’m very rational. So I guess I come across very cold a lot of the time. When you’re staffing that can be a pretty big issue. You’ve got to have a lot of empathy. I mean, again, I’ll just hire someone else to put in that position to handle.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah, like HR or something.

Kurt Philip: But the biggest issue is, for instance, we were growing really quickly at the middle of last month. We’d already hit the previous month’s revenue by day 12 or something.

Daryl Rosser: Wow.

Kurt Philip: I was like, “Man, we’re gonna blow this off. We’re gonna hit the end of the year goal in day 25.” I projected. Then one of my main guys had a personal issue and just disappeared for two weeks. He was managing four or five projects. I didn’t know where everything was. I didn’t know what, so we had to go, and I had to step back in, and try and work out where on the … we didn’t have this software at that point. Now, that made me step up and get something to manage that. That won’t happen again.

Daryl Rosser: You can just look at it and go, “Oh, here…”

Kurt Philip: Yeah, I can go, “He’s on that part.”

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Kurt Philip: Exactly, it’s solved that problem now, but, and this is the great thing about a startup, it’s like let’s say you innovate, it’s like find these problems, put some systems in to make sure it doesn’t happen. But he just disappeared, and it was a big problem he had. It wasn’t that he was a bad staff member. He’s actually back now, but there were some personal issues with his family-

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Kurt Philip: -and he disappeared, but I was then wanting to be here in Chiang Mai networking and hanging out with all my friends, but instead I’m like going home after the events and just working until 2 am.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Kurt Philip: Or waking up at 2 am just like stressed out of my head just on the computer while my girlfriend’s asleep until like 4 am trying to get these problems solved. So, for me, the staffing’s been the biggest issue, but that’s just mainly because when you have an automated company or a passive company SEO-wise you don’t really have to do too much.

Daryl Rosser: And now it’s just growing fast.

Kurt Philip: It’s growing so fast.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Kurt Philip: I’m doing what I need to do, but you can only innovate so fast right? You can’t just be at it all the time. I was living in Switzerland when I worked for like three months solid putting out 12-15 hour days every day for three months.

Daryl Rosser: Geez.

Kurt Philip: I’d never really done that before, but it needed to be done. It wouldn’t be where it is now if it wasn’t for that. It’s been a big change, man, that’s for sure from our last video call we did.

Daryl Rosser: That’s cool.

Kurt Philip: It’s been-

Daryl Rosser: What about lifestyle changes? Obviously you did the 3 month stint, 15 a day which is insane. What about these days aside from the 2 am thing recently?

Kurt Philip: The lifestyle? Me and my girlfriend do still travel a lot.

Daryl Rosser: Okay.

Kurt Philip: But I feel like I’ve leveled up into a different type of business guy now. I feel like I am a proper business man now, whereas before I was like I’m just making good money and pissing it away or whatever.

Now, I’m like incorporating in certain jurisdictions, not tax-free stuff, but incorporating in certain jurisdictions for better efficiency of technology or moving to countries that have better business structures that implement more modern business technologies and stuff. And traveling around the world to do this, and traveling around the world to see clients, and going to the events, and just doing it purely for the business. Where it’s like it’s not business and lifestyle anymore it’s just kind of integrated with each other.

Daryl Rosser: That’s cool.

Kurt Philip: Lifestyle wise I used to like workout three to four hours a day and cycle 50 Ks a day, and that’s sort of toned down a lot now because I don’t have the time to do it, but I will. I will, maybe, depends how much how much time I have.

Daryl Rosser: Are you looking to exit as well at some point?

Kurt Philip: Yeah, exactly, exactly. But I think it’s just like whenever I can’t exercise or workout as much as I can, then it’s showing me I need to get some more systems set up.

Daryl Rosser: Absolutely.

Kurt Philip: Even if it does chop into the profit margins a lot or breakeven so what, you got to look at that more longterm views.

Daryl Rosser: How about the books? You still doing 50 a year?

Kurt Philip: And that’s another thing I haven’t been doing, no.

Daryl Rosser: Okay.

Kurt Philip: I’ve read maybe 10 books this year in total, and we’re in November, you know? But one thing I did this year was it was like it’s time to implement all of that knowledge that I’ve digested the last few years. You can’t just read. That’s like an escape, right?

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Kurt Philip: So I started to implement all the knowledge, and now it’s starting to make sense.

Daryl Rosser: Absolutely.

Kurt Philip: Now it’s starting to get to this different level now where it’s a lot of those business philosophies that I’ve read over the years are starting to make sense at certain points. You’re like, “Oh, that’s what that meant.” Or like it’s starting to click in, you know? I’m still reading, but oh yeah just more implementing these days.

Daryl Rosser: So we jump back to the CRO stuff. Is there any CRO tips that you’d love to share that we didn’t get into?

Kurt Philip: Some quick ones, and people always bring it up is make your site load fast.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Kurt Philip: Site load speed is such an important feature for users. If you’re on your mobile especially we want everything instant. When something doesn’t open instantly, or you can’t buy something quickly, and there’s a breakdown in the chain you just bounce. If your site’s doing over … I see some clients come in, and they’re doing more than 10-20K/month, and they’re still on Hostgator that’s the first thing you change, man, because three-second load time as opposed to a cloud waves load time of like half a second conversions double or even more sometimes.

Daryl Rosser: Okay, wow.

Kurt Philip: Because it’s just like everything is instant, the user can see what they need to see. Install SSLs on your website. This might not seem like CRO, but this is CRO. It’s conversion optimization, while it might not be like any buttons or call-to-actions or whatever those are some fundamental things that we change if it’s not doing straight away because it’s very easy to migrate over to cloud waves these days within two or three hours. Making sure you have a professional branding to your site.

Daryl Rosser: Okay.

Kurt Philip: Like make sure it looks good. Don’t just like use a shitty logo that you’ve created on, what’s that free Photoshop software online that you see? Cambox? And you can see that you’ve made it and it’s crap. Invest some time, especially if you’re making more than $1,000/month, invest some time in making it look higher end.

Daryl Rosser: That actually brings me to a question I was going to ask because ugly invest is good design because as a thought process into the internet marketing industry that really ugly looking pages convert better.

Kurt Philip: And that does happen sometimes in more obscure niches.

Daryl Rosser: Okay.

Kurt Philip: But if you’ve got a shoe review site, or you’ve got a sporting good review site the more professional you come across … it’s like if you come to sell me something and you’re in a tank top, a backwards hat, tattoos, and I’m talking about myself a few years ago right now. But you’re gonna come across as a lot less credible as if I come up to you, and I’m dressed in a nice button-down top and some nice polished shoes, right?

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Kurt Philip: That’s how I see it. So if it’s some more obscure niches like toenail growing cream or something yeah, sure, that comes across more credible. People will like these obscure niches, and they like these UFO ebook or something, then it comes across as more legitimate.

That’s not the mainstream. Maybe it works in those niches, but I’m talking about the 90% of sites. Have a site that loads quick, have high-end photos, use high-end cover images on your site.

Daryl Rosser: Okay.

Kurt Philip: Give it some personality. It might be if you’ve got a shoe review site put a cover photo at the top of the article with people hanging out, playing sport, and having a fun time, and emotionally connect-

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Kurt Philip: And test all this stuff. I’m just giving out a few tips here, but test the stuff. If you don’t have it now get up on, what’s stock photo places? Like Pexels or something. Get on there, get some photos, chock them up on a split test, just add the photo. Run that, and just track all your conversions after that. Sometimes we’ll see 30% increases just from adding that cover image.

Daryl Rosser: Absolutely.

Kurt Philip: So when you start to add up the cover images, the rebranding to make it look professional, the better call-to-action showing up on mobile that’s how you get your 30%,50%,70% increases in conversions is from all these little things. And check your links. Here’s another really good one. A lot of people set up their Amazon affiliate sites, they start making a grand or two a month, they go off to Bali and go surfing and drink coconuts or whatever, they don’t actually go back to their site again.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Kurt Philip: Your site’s killing it. Oh, Joe Smith over there that’s selling his testosterone booster he’s loving you because you’re sending him all that traffic, but now he’s sold out. Have you checked if that product sold out? Do you wonder why your sales have dipped?

Daryl Rosser: You’ve actually seen that?

Kurt Philip: I see it all the time.

Daryl Rosser: Wow, okay.

Kurt Philip: While creaming it for this dude reviewing his product, and his product sells out, and you wonder why your sales dropped it’s because the guy sold out, and they go to Amazon and there’s zero product left. So things like that. Have some system in place whether it’s your assistant or your staff goes in and checks that all your products show up, or the product goes off. A lot of people get banned on Amazon, there’s FBI sellers.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah, yeah.

Kurt Philip: It happens very often. So maybe your product’s gone down. We see that in one or two out of 10 of our clients with Amazon sites, or they are reviewing crap products that have one out of five star. So you gotta look at it from end to end. Make sure each step on the process is still working.

Daryl Rosser: Fair enough. Is there such a thing as being too soon to start doing the CRO process?

Kurt Philip: I mean, these things that I’ve been saying with load speed and having clickable actions they’re like a baseline.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Kurt Philip: That’s why I don’t like to give … because I’ve seen it before. I’ve done posts, and then people have just gone out and just changed their call-to-actions without testing them. I know it because I can see that they’ve just gone out and done it without testing it.

Daryl Rosser: I can see why. You say that this works better, it’s like cool. Saves me some effort.

Kurt Philip: It worked better, and I guess I didn’t really make clear, for instance, in Matt Diggity’s post I did last year, I did say it but I should have put it in bold, test this before you implement it. I just said, “This is a test we’ve done and this is the result.” So people say that and went, “Oh, that’s awesome. That’s gonna be like that on my site.” But we don’t know because we didn’t test it, right?

Daryl Rosser: Yeah. Cool, man. Any final tips for these guys on CRO stuff or even just like building up an agency. They’ve been scaling fast.

Kurt Philip: I mean, just spend time on making your site function well, looking good, loading quick-

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Kurt Philip: -and having a clear … here’s a good tip. Make sure, if you’ve got a landing page, it has a very clear action that you want them to take. Don’t just give them a million different … sometimes you see the sidebar load with 10 banners, “Buy this. Buy this. On sale.” This all just blends out. You can’t notice it anymore. So find your one item that you want to push, and of course it’s different if you have a comparison table. Let’s just say you have a one item out of your whole site that’s the highest converting.

Chuck that one thing in the sidebar. Maybe have a little, “Hi, I’m Daryl from Lion Zeal,” on the sidebar to give it a little personality. Then maybe opt in, but then have a sticky widget in the sidebar of that one product that you want to promote. Just make it very simple. When you start to give people more than three options I think I read, when you start to give people more than three options … okay, so when you have three options you’ll just grab one and you’ll compare two, that’s just how your mind works.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah, sure.

Kurt Philip: So when you have 10 it’s just too much information. You get paralysis from analysis and then you just don’t do anything.

Daryl Rosser: That’s a good point.

Kurt Philip: That would be my thing. Declutter the site. Make it clear what you are or what your site is, and again I’m saying it very broad because it could have been it’s an affiliate or lead gen-

Daryl Rosser: We already know-

Kurt Philip: You already know the actual site. Just make it clear to the user what the action is they want to take, and just start to test it out. Yeah.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah, agree, 100%. Like on my blog the whole focus is getting opt-in.

Kurt Philip: Exactly.

Daryl Rosser: Like no products for sale.

Kurt Philip: Even before the content you just put your massive option at the top and it works really well.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah, exactly.

Kurt Philip: Have you tested much of the call-to-actions?

Daryl Rosser: Don’t call me out on that.

Kurt Philip: Just like most people man. It converts well, but it could convert better.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah, 100%. Yeah, definitely.

Kurt Philip: Exactly.

Daryl Rosser: So the first step, you already covered that. Set up the tracking, right? The heat maps.

Kurt Philip: It’s really cool. I’ll always set up on a site just because I’ll set it up, and even though I’m very experienced in this now, and I can usually see what it means, I’ll always set it up and you’re like, “Oh shit, I didn’t even see that.” I remember this one client, two-thirds of the way down the page there was some image that was getting 80% of the clicks on the page.

It was all the way down at the bottom, and it was just this little image, but it was people wanted to find out more information on that. So then we just pulled that into the process of the conversions, and it increased conversions by a shit load. So I just get heat maps on there, run it for 1000, 2000 views if you can. Most people can do that. Then from there find the 20% of the areas that get 80% of the clicks. It always in the same area, usually above the fold. Then set the split test for those areas.

Then that gives you your starting point for decluttering all the noise because a lot of people will get started, and I get a lot of comments where they’ll go to get started, and they’re just like, “Whatever. What do I do?” I’ve released a lot of content on exactly how to do it, but when it actually comes to implementing it, it can get quite confusing. But just find those 20% of the areas, and then it becomes quite simple. Usually just one or two things you need to split test.

Daryl Rosser: And it’s usually gonna be, I guess, bigger things, like images, buttons, headlines? Not like little descriptions-

Kurt Philip: Exactly. Descriptions or we don’t even test content.

Daryl Rosser: Okay.

Kurt Philip: I know a lot of people do test. I do on my own sites, but when we’re working on 50-60 sites at a time if we change the content it can really impact the SEOs, that’s a business risk for us. So we don’t touch content we just play around with placement, images, and we get these type of gains. So it’s not any like thing you should disregard, even just images or the way things look in comparison tables and so on.

Daryl Rosser: And if someone could only read one article, one book, or one piece of content on CRO to get them started what should they read?

Kurt Philip: The AB of Testing is probably the best. There’s an older one called Convert by Ben Hunt I believe it is. I read this years ago, and this is what got me started in it, and it has a lot of chapters on consumer psychology in a very, very basic explanation, so you can understand it a lot. It talks about the five different levels of consumer awareness. That for me, I still use it today. Although I’ve read much more complex stuff, I still use his explanation of it when I’m looking through a site. The AB of Testing is by the guys at Optimizely I believe. So it’s a bit of a lead gen for them, but it’s also unreal, and it shows a lot of case studies that they’ve done.

Daryl Rosser: Again, don’t just copy that.

Kurt Philip: Don’t just copy that, yeah exactly. Then another thing I do when I’m stuck for ideas or my guys are stuck for ideas they’ll go out there and just look for case studies.

Daryl Rosser: Okay.

Kurt Philip: Say if you’ve got a football affiliate site where you sell football gear and stuff go look at footballs with testing case studies. See what other people have done. See what other tests that they have done that have worked, and don’t just implement them, chuck them into Optimizely or VWO or Google Optimize and test those things out. Just be patient. Stynus did a presentation … Both friends of ours. He did a presentation here in Chiang Mai last week, and he kept saying, “Just be patient.”

If you don’t have over 1000 view a day it can take a long time to get a test result, and most people don’t have that patience. By the time a week goes on they forgot they started the test. By the time two weeks goes on they’ve already found a new plugin that claims to increase conversions by 200%, and they’ll just install that and void their whole test.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Kurt Philip: So it does take a very patient psychology for it all, but that’s where you just start it and just leave it. But if you’re still building your site, adding content, that’s where it can really step on the process.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah man. Cool. Where can people find you if they want to check out your services, and you have a blog and stuff like that right?

Kurt Philip: Yeah, yeah. You can go to, and I publish content on there once/twice a month.

Daryl Rosser: Okay, cool.

Kurt Philip: I’ve also got the CRO Academy on Facebook. I’ve just kicked that off about two weeks ago.

Daryl Rosser: A Facebook group?

Kurt Philip: Yeah, a Facebook group.

Daryl Rosser: Awesome.

Kurt Philip: We share tips, case studies. A lot of stuff I do I just share. It’s like a diary for me.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah.

Kurt Philip: So I’ll just jump in there, and I’ll just share everything we’re doing, or like stuff I’ll catch myself doing. It’s psychological little tricks and stuff.

Daryl Rosser: Yeah, yeah.

Kurt Philip: Yeah, in the next six months I’m really gonna build that up and build the community up for that. So yeah, and the CRO Academy. I’ll be hanging around there.

Daryl Rosser: Awesome. I appreciate you joining, man. It’s been awesome.

Kurt Philip: Thanks, really good chatting again.

Daryl Rosser: Hope you guys enjoyed it.

Kurt Philip: Cheers.



About Daryl Rosser

Daryl runs a six figure SEO business primarily focusing on local clients. He's extremely analytical, and his favourite ranking strategy is using PBN's.

One Response to “How To 2-3X The Revenue From Your Existing Traffic Using CRO with Kurt Philip”

  • Costa  February 8, 2018 at 10:16 pm

    “DaPulse” that Kurt mentioned is now called Monday: