Are you currently running an SEO business but are having trouble scaling it to the next level?
In this episode, Mads Singers breaks down exactly how to scale an SEO team to grow your business.
You will learn how to build up a successful team, how to manage that team, and how to ensure that the team operates efficiently to focus on the important tasks that need to be done to scale any SEO business.
- 9:20 – The 80/20 hiring rule – Getting 80% of the benefit with 20% of the cost
- 19:21 – The first step to implement when scaling a team
- 23:20 – How to calculate the value of your own time to save you money
- 27:03 – How to reposition your services to sell results-based SEO
- 30:47 – Advanced scaling techniques
- 37:45 – Teaching people how to take ownership of their work to increase results
- 40:11 – How to avoid hiring the wrong person
- 45:40 – Important tips to manage team members
- 53:11 – Big mistakes to avoid when scaling a team
Need help growing your SEO business? Click here to have Daryl personally coach you.
Daryl Rosser: Hey guys, welcome back to another episode of the Lion Zeal Show. We’re here in Chiang Mai for the Chiang Mai SEO Conference.
I’m sitting here with Mads Singers, and we’re discussing management, actually, and how that relates to SEO, and ultimately why it’s so important for scaling up your business because so many people make frankly a lot of mistakes we’ll get into in this interview that really they get stuck at certain levels and they just can’t scale.
We’re talking about how to really manage a team, how to build up a team, and ultimately how you can have your team basically take responsibility of different tasks and utilize that to really scale up your business. So it’s ultimately about how to scale up, and it’s very specific to SEO. So if you’re looking to grow what you’re doing for your agency or affiliate site or anything really business-related really, but especially SEO, then definitely check out this interview.
You’re gonna learn a ton about it. So thanks for joining me man, let’s just get straight into it.
Yeah, hey man, thank you for joining me today. It’s really awesome to be here.
Mads Singers: My pleasure.
Daryl Rosser: And finally have a proper chat.
Mads Singers: How are you?
Daryl Rosser: I’m good, how about you?
Mads Singers: Fantastic.
Daryl Rosser: Have fun last night?
Mads Singers: Very good, very good.
Daryl Rosser: Awesome, man. So for anyone that doesn’t know who you are already, do you want to introduce yourself and what you do?
Mads Singers: Yeah. So my name is Matt Singers, and I run a VA company. I run a management coaching, a management consulting company primarily focused on people management. So most of what I do is really help people, help them how to build companies and how to scale companies, particularly through managing people more effectively.
Because a lot of entrepreneurs, they’re sort of in this space where they get a great idea, they start a business, suddenly they start hiring people, and one day they wake up and realize they’re managing 20 people. But they aren’t really doing it very effectively.
Because they’re really in a situation where they just haven’t learned the skills and they try things and sometimes … Obviously some people are more naturally gifted at some of the skills than others, but at least from my point-of-view, management is not that difficult.
So basically, like most other things, you have 80/20. Basically, for me in about five hours, I can go through sort of the 80/20 with most managers and really help them just establish the basic management processes that’s gonna make them successful.
So that’s what I do a lot. And then generally lots of these sort of hiring, firing questions that people often deal with. I spend a lot of time on that as well.
Daryl Rosser: Interesting. How did you get into that stuff? Like you’re at an SEO conference and …
Mads Singers: Yeah, so I used to work in IBM in outsourcing management so in various different management roles and so on. And basically, that’s how I … that was sort of the back step of it. I actually realized already when I was 18 that I wanted to get into management and-
Daryl Rosser: That’s a strong-
Mads Singers: It was a little bit early, but what happened was I started working at a company called Xerox, and what happened was I got this amazing boss, right? Actually, I had one boss first for a couple of months and that was okay, but then I changed team and got this amazing boss. And I was so impressed with the difference she made in people’s life. There’s such a huge difference between having a job and having a job that you love showing up to.
Daryl Rosser: You had like a bad boss before that at any point?
Mads Singers: It wasn’t a bad boss, but it was just a like a …
Daryl Rosser: Average … Yeah, yeah okay.
Mads Singers: But this, like when I saw like how she impacted people’s life and also felt in my own body how much I loved doing work even though it was basic work, it was monotone, but I loved doing it. And that’s sort of when I realized, literally within a couple months working with her, that I don’t want to do IT, I want to manage people. And literally, I began asking a few people like how do I get into that, how do I start, and basically the answer in most cases was, “Oh go take this four, five year education,” and my relationship with schools were not great.
Basically, my philosophy is this thing with learning one hour this, one hour this, one hour this, it doesn’t work. If I want to learn stuff, I sit down and I disappear for a week and I just figure it out.
So I hate the way school is built up, where first of all, you learn a lot of stuff you don’t need, and second of all, it’s all spread into these modules all the time, which for me makes it … Yeah, I don’t have the patience. I wanna learn stuff, then I wanna learn it there and then. So I basically went down the route of self-development, so I bought all the books I could find, I got lots of mentors and coaches, and all that stuff-
Daryl Rosser: In person, or?
Mads Singers: Yeah.
Daryl Rosser: Okay, cool.
Mads Singers: I worked in a big company, so there were lots of high-level managers with lots of good knowledge and stuff like that so-
Daryl Rosser: And where were you based at this point?
Mads Singers: That was in Ireland, so I left Denmark when I was about 18 to go work in Ireland. And then, yeah. Basically that’s how I got into the whole thing. And then basically, I developed through personal development.
And I’d say the most frustrating thing both at Xerox and IBM was I was so passionate about management, I was so passionate about making a difference, and the challenge I had was that no one else around me seemed to care much. Right?
Daryl Rosser: Yeah.
Mads Singers: They cared if the result weren’t there, but for most people again it was a nine-to-five job, right? For me, it was my passion. I wanted to talk about it, I wanted to talk with people and like how can we make this better, how can we improve ourselves, how can we do stuff-
Daryl Rosser: And they just want to go home and they’re waiting until five o’clock.
Mads Singers: They were like, “Oh, it’s five, let’s go home.” And I’m like … I mean, it’s not about the 9-to-5, it’s not about that, but it’s more the mindset, right? And I started doing a lot … when I moved to UK and worked for IBM, I started joining a lot of these Toastmasters, for example, with sort of a mix of public speaking and leadership and management skills, which was super. And basically, I met a bunch of people who also had the passion that I had. And that was really good.
And then towards the end of my time with IBM, I started actually doing management coaching. So I started actually coaching managers. At that time, it was mostly in other corporate companies, so like Shell and Coca-Cola and other companies.
And what I very quickly realized … I did about five hours per week, so one hour per client a week, and I actually made more money doing five hours per week than the 60 to 70 hours over at IBM. And even though I loved that job at IBM, that sort of financial proportion didn’t really-
Daryl Rosser: Doesn’t make sense, yeah.
Mads Singers: It didn’t make a lot of sense. And then, yeah. I decided to quit, and at the time I was looking after people both in Eastern Europe and the Philippines and the UK. And I spent a bunch of time in the Philippines, and I sort of figured out I liked the place. So I ended up moving to the Philippines, away from the touristy area, so I took-
Daryl Rosser: Whereabouts?
Mads Singers: Called Davao
Daryl Rosser: Oh, I’ve heard of it. Okay.
Mads Singers: So-
Daryl Rosser: Is it an island?
Mads Singers: At the time, there was a lot of DC crowd, and sort of the digital nomad crowd that I sort of hang around, and that worked out really, really well. Well, what changed was instead of working with corporate clients, I started working much more with entrepreneurs. And I can tell you for sure, it doesn’t pay as well. However, I mean, if you coach 10 people in Coca-Cola and you look at the stocks, nothing happens. Right?
Daryl Rosser: Yeah.
Mads Singers: If I coach a manager that’s managing 10 people, sometimes business is 5, 10x, right? And the sort of self-reward for that and the feeling of it is just totally different world. So I much prefer to work with entrepreneurs, even though it’s often at a very different pay scale.
Daryl Rosser: Yeah, you’re the mastermind, right?
Mads Singers: Yeah, so I’ve done a lot of different sort of set-ups. So I do here in Asia a lot of entrepreneurs where I actually go and do in-house coaching, so often with the entire management team. So I’ve just been back from Japan from a trip where I was coaching a guy that had a language-learning company. Basically he had about eight or nine managers that I was all coaching, and that’s going really, really well. So sometimes you can manage to get things across in person that’s a little bit more difficult in a Skype call.
Daryl Rosser: 100%, yeah.
Mads Singers: Skype calls still amazing and I still definitely see the value-
Daryl Rosser: That’s why we’re doing this.
Mads Singers: … but, face-to-face had that bit more, right?
Daryl Rosser: Yeah.
Mads Singers: And particularly when you’re doing team coaching because then you can get everyone together in the room, and you can sort of get some different synergy rather than the sort of one-to-one coaching.
Daryl Rosser: So is that why you went into SEO I guess? Because you just met SEO people?
Mads Singers: So what actually happened was I realized most of these people I was coaching, they really struggled to hire. And a lot of the SEO crowd and so on, they really struggled to hire VAs specifically, because, again, a lot of SEO is scalable and easy to do, so there’s no point in paying 15, 20 bucks an hour when it could be done for five bucks an hour.
So basically I helped a lot of people how to hire VAs, I started also interviewing a lot of VAs myself in the Philippines where I was based. But I realized there’s a lot of problems, so you have the typical, “Oh I have no power, oh I have no internet, oh something happened and I can’t show up to work today.” So basically, we ended up setting up a fairly big office and basically getting people in the office so that we know they’re consistent performers.
We also have some home-based stuff, but a large majority of our people is office-based.
Daryl Rosser: Is it different hiring, say, in-person like you do in the office versus going on to sites like onlinejobs.ph? Is there a liability difference?
Mads Singers: It depends on your interview skills. At this stage, I’ve hired nearly two thousand people. So it doesn’t take me a lot of time to figure out if someone is the right person. But a lot of people really struggle with interviewing because it’s not something you do very frequently. Just like public speaking, the reason why people struggle with it is because they do it very rarely.
So it’s all about … I mean for me, the number one skill as a business owner, as a manager that you have to learn and be really good at is having the right people. Because if you learn to hire the right people, the rest of your life will be so much easier. Sometimes, if you hire the wrong people, and they stick around, they can literally ruin your business, right? For me, that’s probably the number one skill for any manager, any leader to learn and develop.
Daryl Rosser: Yeah, I see a lot of … like we’re here, there’s a lot of SEO guys here, and some of them are making 10 or $20,000 a month, and they’re doing it just themselves or just one VA. And I’m always pushing them, like hey, get some more people, even like a project manager I think to kind of help you take over that stuff so you can scale up. I don’t know what your thoughts are on that.
Mads Singers: That’s exactly it. Not just SEO, but in general when I coach managers, I sort of help them look at the, again, 80/20, 90/10 often and see what is it you do.
So as an SEO, for example, the stuff that you probably will have the most difficult time handing out is stuff like looking at the page, sort of seeing where is the opportunities. Like keyword research can actually be done by other people in some cases, but actually putting the whole puzzle together, building this strategy for what needs to happen here. Then the stuff we do a lot from our standpoint is link-building, for example. So we build thousands of PBNs per week, we do tons of outreach.
Daryl Rosser: Yeah, you build thousands of PBNs a week.
Mads Singers: We build around 1,800 a week right now.
Daryl Rosser: And get the domains?
Mads Singers: So, probably about three, four hundred domains of those we get. And a lot of people have their own suppliers. A lot of people we work with have their own special tools to find the domains, and then we just purchase them and set them up
Daryl Rosser: How are you getting three … Sorry, How do you get three hundred, four hundred domains a week?
Mads Singers: When you have a large enough team that works.
Daryl Rosser: Like scraping or?
Mads Singers: Yeah, we do a lot of scraping.
Daryl Rosser: Okay. Gotcha, okay.
Mads Singers: So we have about 20 scraper servers.
Daryl Rosser: Gotcha, okay.
Mads Singers: So we do a lot of scraping. A lot of our customers, it’s not always .com. So we have a lot of customers in Europe trying to rank European sites, so we are scraping lots of different countries. I’d say .com is probably the most difficult one.
Daryl Rosser: Very difficult.
Mads Singers: For .com, you need to look at a thousand of domains to find a good one, whereas in many European countries you maybe need to look at a hundred or 50 because there’s just a lot less people looking for it, right?
Daryl Rosser: Yeah, absolutely.
Mads Singers: But in general, we get a lot of .coms as well, and we have a huge team getting a lot of HREF credits, so yeah.
Daryl Rosser: So what was the thought … I cut you off and I asked you that, you were going somewhere.
Mads Singers: The main piece is … Basically anything to do with link-building is usually scalable. It’s usually something that can put out. Even stuff like internal links are … even internal checklists, right? So we have a few people that do go to the internal link structure, go to the internal SEO on pages. And most clients say, “Oh but its so unique every time,” and it’s not really. In most cases, you can make a process and say, “Look for this, look for this, look for this, look for this.” And then you get 80/20, 90/10.
And yeah, sometimes you can get a little bit more if you have someone who’s amazing at it, who’s like, “Oh we could tweak it like this.” But again, if you can get 80% or 90% of the benefit and not having to do it yourself that leaves you much more space for doing the unique stuff. So as I say to most SEOs, if you can do one side 100% or five sides 90%, I’ll tell you what makes the most money.
Daryl Rosser: Yeah absolutely, you’re right, yeah.
Mads Singers: And that’s the mindset that you have to have, so. A lot of SEOs are sort of a perfectionist type personality.
Daryl Rosser: I am.
Mads Singers: You are as well. I belong in that category as well, but when you actually learn the value of not everything needs to be perfect, right? So when you do outreach, when you do some of these things, yeah great if you do it perfect every time, awesome. But if you get someone else to do it, you get 90% of the benefit, and you can basically pay out five hundred bucks a month. I mean the benefit is so phenomenal compared to the opposite.
Daryl Rosser: I heard someone say that about a copywriter recently, that a lot of business owners like to write their own copy, their sales pages, and stuff. And it’s very important that it converts really well. But they hired a copywriter, and he said even if they do it 80% as good, that person writes copy from morning until night every single day, whereas they only have maybe an hour slot every morning that they can fit it in.
Mads Singers: So in that specific regards, so what I’d say if it’s a specific industry, I think it makes sense for the owner to write initially. That’d actually help give the copywriter a good idea of what they’re focusing on and how they see their audience. But then … Me, for example, I don’t know colors.
I don’t know if blue and green looks good together or it looks ugly. So anything I do with the sign, I always tell other people I’m not natively English, so I write well but, again, I’m not a copywriter. So if I have a website myself where the domain is a powerful money page, you get someone else to do it.
Because again, for me, if you look at it from an SEO standpoint, the value that you have, you have to know exactly where you add the value. And most people are always afraid, they’re afraid, “I can’t afford to pay.” But for most people, it end up being the most expensive decisions. Because what happens is as soon as you start hiring, as long as you see some success with the delegation, you really see your business explode.
Daryl Rosser: Yeah, that’s the realization I made. I was trying to do everything myself for such a long time, and as soon as I made that one decision … it’s not like you’re just spending whatever you pay that person, it comes back fast when you have the right person.
Mads Singers: Yeah, and that’s … what we focus on in our sourcing company is really making sure we just give the framework. Because again, most of these SEOs aren’t very comfortable, so really what we do is we help them. Often we ask them for a video of the process and them explaining, but then we actually help them document it and then we help them execute the process. And really we put the people in office, we make sure the people are managed and basically that means that from an overall point of view, we’re just looking at executing repeatedly, right?
So basically, for our clients basically, they make sure that they have a good description, they make sure they have the process, and if the VA needs any sort of training or adjustment, they usually do that and then tell them what tasks to do. So building PBNs for example, for most of our clients, we basically get a sheet saying … actually for some of our clients we just get an analytics sheet, right? And they say, “Okay we need these 10 analytics, we need 20 analytics for this one, and 40 for this one.
And then we have all the process that says okay we need to build X amount of PBNs, we need to get this content. So again for many people, instead of them ordering the content, our VAs actually have direct access to their writers, communicate with writer, and say, “Okay now I need four pieces of sport content about this topic, can you deliver please?” So basically they end up doing most of all the time-taking stuff.
Daryl Rosser: That’s awesome.
Mads Singers: Because often that’s where people struggle. They always feel like they have to put it all together. So they have a writer to do one thing, they have someone else doing something, and they are always sitting doing the work in the end. Whereas from my point of view you really have to … and it takes a lot of time to build the system, but as soon as you have the system it works really, really well.
Daryl Rosser: Yeah. I noticed a big step you’ll make is they do it all themselves, and they hire a VA, maybe two or three VAs, and then suddenly they’re not doing it themselves; they’re just micromanaging the Vas that do it for them.
Mads Singers: And again, they get a little bit of benefit but that’s not 80/20, that’s 20/80. So they get 20% of the benefit for 80% of the time they would have otherwise. So they’re getting a slight benefit, but not much.
Daryl Rosser: So how does someone actually apply this? So if someone … let’s say they’re running a SEO business, they’ve got a few clients they’re ranking, or affiliates, it doesn’t even matter, just ranking new sites, and they’re building new ones or getting new clients, and they’re constantly ranking. If they jus manage it all themselves right now, what’s the first step they should take now?
Mads Singers: So the first step … for example, one of the last clients I helped was a guy in local SEO. And again, it was slightly different from … A lot of my clients are very large clients, but this guy was fairly small. And basically, the first steps we took with him was looking at something as simple as he was ordering citations, he was ordering content, he was doing a little bit on link-building, but most of it was he basically bought links off different providers.
So what we actually did was I sat down with him and we looked at those processes, and none of that he needed to be involved in. So we basically figured out … So the one thing that was very important for citation was that the AdWords was 100% correct every time. So he basically checked that the information he got from the client was the way it should be, but then he basically put it into Trello board for our VA and they ordered the citations, they communicated with PBN butler, and they did all the work.
They were the ones then going … again, he said we need three money pages. He had looked at the keywords, and he had figured this is three money pages. Again our VA went to order the content, put the content up, do all the internal structure and optimization-
Daryl Rosser: Because it doesn’t seem like that much, right? But it is when you’re constantly doing all these little things. Like spinning away here.
Mads Singers: The key thing is distraction. So every time you get distracted and you have to, “Oh I’ll do this it’ll only take five minutes,” the point is you take your eye off the ball. And that’s where people fail because then they don’t have that energy to put in, “Oh, I wanted to do this thing but I was so busy today.” And it’s always these small things. It’s like answering this email and so on.
But basically we ended up … literally his entire process. I mean the only thing he did was look at a page when it comes in. If it only needed link-building and citations, he would just do an analytics plan. So rather than him spending nearly all of his time …
He had a time with these 5 client client, and he was literally spending 95% with these 5 clients. It basically went down to the stage where he’s literally spending maybe half an hour a day maximum looking at things, and then the rest of it, the VA takes care of. And the reality is when you hire people … I hate the term VAs because people treat VAs differently than other employees, but don’t ever do that. It’s a regular employee and anywhere in the world you hire someone, at some stage they’ll make mistakes, right?
Daryl Rosser: Of course.
Mads Singers: mean, the way you learned was making mistakes, right? People do-
Daryl Rosser: These guys here said they don’t make mistakes.
Mads Singers: Yeah, and that’s the key thing, right? If you expect that someone goes in and does it better than you did, from day one, you’re making a big mistake.
Daryl Rosser: And we’ve made mistakes too, of course. Probably worse.
Mads Singers: Constantly. And the problem is when we’re making mistakes it’s because we’re so busy that we forgetting very important stuff. And that’s actually a bigger mistake. But yeah, generally the whole mindset I have is if you’re doing something that someone getting paid less than you could be doing, you’re really wasting resources-
Daryl Rosser: I love this here.
Mads Singers: Right? This is the same at home. If you spend two hours doing your washing and you could hire someone to do it that’s paid less an hour than you are, why are you doing your own washing? If you hate it, if you hate it. Like you say, cleaning or cooking or any of that stuff. I look at it as a life perspective and I say, “Where can you actually get more time or get more enjoyable time where it makes financial sense to you?”
Daryl Rosser: No, I love this. Say in V&M like I’m living now. Like I have cleaners come around, I just go on this app and request one to come around. Because they do everything for me, I don’t want to do any of that stuff. And one, that’s kind of lazy maybe, but it’s also very efficient because it allows me to do what I enjoy doing. And that’s why most of us build our businesses, so we can do that. I think …
Mads Singers: For me, I keep saying outsource, outsource, outsource. Even if you have an office, hire someone to come and change the light-bulbs and fix the toilet or whatever.
Daryl Rosser: Bring some food and drinks around, whatever.
Mads Singers: Don’t do it yourself. Right? Hire someone to do it. Yeah, it might cost a little bit of money, but the headache and time and effort you put into it-
Daryl Rosser: And like you said, though, you figure out how much your time is worth, right?
Mads Singers: Exactly, and that’s the point where people go wrong is because they’re not making a lot of money, they don’t consider their time worth very much, but the reason that they aren’t making a lot of money is because they aren’t considering their time being worth much.
Right? And it’s the same challenge. I saw your speech yesterday, and you were like, “Okay, well start with 1,000 bucks a month,” and that’s great. But if you spend 6, 700 bucks a month doing the actual work, 1,000 is not a lot of money. A lot of people think, wow a thousand bucks, I have a thousand bucks, but if you spend 700 of them again, you have 300 bucks. Doing work for 300 bucks is okay as long as long as you don’t spend very much time on it. Again, if you spend one or two hours a month making 300 bucks that’s probably okay. Then you make about 150 bucks an hour.
Daryl Rosser: That’s what I clarified to someone afterwords because they asked me, “If I get a client for $500 a month is that okay?” And I was like, “It is if you do basically nothing and you have automated reporting going out and the work’s outsourced and you just take $500 or $200, whatever you get, out of that just pure profit.”
Mads Singers: Yeah and that’s the key thing, but the mindset is critical. The mindset of looking at what do you make versus the key challenge of what are you actually spending in time and resources to make that money.
Daryl Rosser: Yeah, but do you recommend then that someone first figures out how much an hour their time is worth?
Mads Singers: No, what I recommend is doing what actually you recommended yesterday. It is pick a client and charge them a lot money.
Daryl Rosser: Okay, cool.
Mads Singers: But I mean if you’re doing SEO for example, right? You’re in a space … People don’t understand the value you add. The problem most people in a SEO have is that they’re trying to sell SEO. To people who don’t understand it, that’s nothing, but if you’re selling a business, if you’re telling people I will get X amount more people walking in your front door every single day if you pay me this amount of money, they’ll be like, “Okay, take my money.”
Daryl Rosser: Exactly, yeah, 100%.
Mads Singers: That’s how it works, if I can get you … If you work with a plumber or whatever and you say, “Okay plumber, I can get you 100 more leads,” and I’m like, “I only have five customers a week right now. If you get me a hundred more leads I’ll be full-time. Great, you solved my problems, take my money.”
So, SEO is … and web development is very similar as well. People always try and sell this magical formula that they know worked, but the problem is that they’re selling what they do instead of selling the outcome.
Daryl Rosser: And then it gets messier. Especially web design, the client’s asking you to change and like tweak the design and change this color …
Mads Singers: But the problem with that approach is that it’s wrong from the start. The point is as a web developer … when I go to a web developer, they ask me, “What do you want?” I basically … for me, that’s like going to a mechanic and they are asking me, “What do you want us to do?” And I’m like, “I don’t know, I’m not a mechanic,” right? And the web developers treat people like that. They’re like, “What do you want? Tell me what you want.” I’m like, “I don’t freaking know.”
Daryl Rosser: And then they complain when they get told what to do.
Mads Singers: It’s not just about that. They don’t have the mindset of, “I’m the expert. I need to be able to recommend this is what I suggest.” Sometimes a client would say something else, but the point is as the subject matter expert, you have to be able to go out as a web developer and say, “Okay, you have this type of business, I would recommend that we do this, this, this. How does that sound?” Right? Develop that solution, show it to them, and yeah you can tweak things if they want and that’s great, but you have to be the subject matter expert.
Daryl Rosser: I said this to my video editor recently. So he edits all my videos for me and what the process is, is that I will give him a video or the footage and everything and I’ll tell him how I want it edited and he does it. And he was asking how he can add more value. I was like, “Well, you need to tell me everything and I just give you the stuff, and you just create it and I don’t do anything, it’s your input and your expertise, not mine.”
Mads Singers: But that’s exactly it. Exactly down that road. And that’s where SEOs go wrong as well. If you sell SEO, from my point of view, you want to sell a specific outcome. And I’m not talking about big website businesses, I’m talking about leads or even conversions. Right? For me, if you go out to someone that’s selling, let’s say something … Let’s take pool tables. If you’re selling pool tables, and I have no idea what they cost, but let’s say you make 500 bucks a pool table.
Daryl Rosser: No idea, but yeah.
Mads Singers: And you told someone, “Okay. I will put my life on the line and say I will help you sell 10 more pool tables every month.” You know that will generate at least in the first sale five grand. And you tell them, “I’m gonna charge you four.” And from my professional point-of-view, I would put my integrity on the line and say, “If I don’t make this, I will charge you according to what you sell extra.”
Because the benefit with SEO is you can measure so much stuff. You can measure this stuff, you can measure how many leads come in. If it’s e-commerce, you can measure how many sales there is. You can measure the difference you make in most cases. And when you can do that … now the point is, if you charge someone 4K to do that, if you see, oh we’re not doing well, you can turn on PPC, you can turn on Facebook ads, you can turn on different other media. I mean for all sake, you can go on and post stuff on Craigslist if you need to.
But you can make it happen one way or another. The key thing is if you say this is the outcome I’ll get you and you deliver that, people will keep paying you more money. Now, if you say, “I can get you 10 more pool tables sold if you pay me 4K,” the month after you say, “Do you want to sell 20? Pay me 8k.”
So the second thing people, particularly SEOs, don’t sell is the results. They send an automated report to the client, they hope, oh the client must be happy because I know the numbers are good. Two months later, the client cancels and they’re like, “Why are you canceling?” “Oh, well I haven’t really spoken with you, I don’t really feeling I’m getting enough value.” Right? Every single month, no matter if your reports are positive or negative, you get on the phone with this client and you talk to them and you tell them, “Okay, last month you paid me 4k. I helped you make 8k. Are you ready to do more?” Right?
And the same. I have people who have said, “Oh yeah, I want to pay for a whole year.” And I don’t agree. Every single month when you get on the phone with them, ask them for more money. Right?
Daryl Rosser: I love that, that’s cool.
Mads Singers: You’re delivering success for the money they are paying you. They know they can trust you because you deliver. If you tell them you deliver more, they pay more. Great business, right?
Daryl Rosser: Yeah.
Mads Singers: Great business.
Daryl Rosser: So what about the guys, kind of like the guys we met, like here that are kind of scaling up a little bit, they maybe even have a couple VAs and stuff like that. What was the advice for those guys to really … or even maybe to have a team member for managing that better and growing that.
Mads Singers: In terms of teams management, there’s basically two very simple processes that I … again 80/20. So most SEOs really, really struggle with knowing the staff, talking with the staff. So if you’re in an office with people, the reason why it’s different is because you see people every day. You say, “Hey good morning.” And yeah, some people also say good morning on Skype, but it’s not the same thing.
Daryl Rosser: No, it’s not, no.
Mads Singers: And so what you want to make sure is if you have people at a different location than you specifically … You want to do it if they’re in the same location as well, but particularly if they’re in a different location, have half an hour with each person you manage every single week. Sit down with them and basically do a session. 10 minutes.
Three times, 10 minutes. First 10 minutes, it’s all about them. What do you want to talk about? Do you want to talk about football or your wedding or some work stuff you’ve been … whatever you want to talk about. But the key thing is, the way you get key results from people is by having great relationships with them.
Daryl Rosser: That’s what Jonathan’s saying, right? On stage.
Mads Singers: f you only do what you do because your boss tells you to, you’re not gonna be good and you’re not gonna be a huge success for the company. The second you do what you do because you feel your boss respects you, he likes when you take initiative, you’re gonna deliver so much more. And particularly for SEOs, take this time to talk to people. If you’re not a people-person, this is even more important. But taking the time to doing this stuff is so critical.
First 10 minutes, all about them. Then you have 10 minutes all about you, where you can look at results, metrics, what are you delivering, how can I help you do more. If you’re not performing, how can I help you do more? If you’re already performing very well, how can I make you even better? Right? Just because someone hit your goal, that doesn’t mean that’s their peak. If someone hits your goal, you increase their goal. If they say, “That’s totally unfair,” you say, “That’s great, but I’m trying to get the most out of you.”
Daryl Rosser: That’s what we do for ourselves.
Mads Singers: That’s what we do for ourselves, right? If you do running, if you have a goal, if you hit it, you set a new goal that’s higher. And that’s what you want to do for employees as well.
And then the last piece is around development. You really want to focus on what is the development and the key process … most entrepreneurs haven’t learned self-development. The one thing people don’t learn in school is learning how to learn.
Daryl Rosser: That’s true.
Mads Singers: So, learning how to learn is the ability to say, “I want to learn how to play guitar, what do I do?” Most people go buy a guitar because that’s the logical step and they kind of sit down and they’re playing around with it a little bit, and then they stop.
Daryl Rosser: I did that as a kid.
Mads Singers: You have to learn how to learn. Now the way you want to go about this is very, very slow because you want people to have wins. So for example if someone says, “Oh I really … I’m right now doing link-building, but I really want to learn On-Page SEO.” The problem most managers have is to tell them, “Okay go do this thing.” And that’s the wrong approach.
The right approach is, “Okay that sounds awesome. I’d love for you to learn this stuff. How do you think you can learn, right? So next week, go and research some resources, come back to me and give me what you think would be a good way for you to learn this.”
Daryl Rosser: So you pick don’t for them. You don’t just give them a course and say, “Go do this.”
Mads Singers: Exactly. If someone tell you what to do and it doesn’t work, they told you the wrong thing, right? If you’re trying to do something and you make the choice and it is working, you find a different way. You take the ownership, right? So that’s the whole key. You want to give them the opportunity to come back to you the week after with something and that could be, “Oh I want to read a book or I have this online course that has this in-person training. I could sit down with another team member,” right?
And you say, “Okay, which one do you think is best?” Sometimes you can invest the money in them and say, “Hey let’s buy this course for you,” and sometimes you might not have as many finance and you say, “Okay, let’s get you to spend some time with this guy.”
But that’s the starting goal. And then you wanna do small goals. So if, for example, it’s doing an online course for an hour, your goal for next week is watch the first 15 minutes. Then the week after, you then talk to them and say, “What did you see the first 15 minutes? How did that help you? How did it benefit what you’re trying to do? Do you think doing the rest of this will help you?”
But the key thing is … Like if it’s a book, don’t say, “Read the whole book.” Because the problem is most people are the same. They start doing a deliverable the day before. And the problem is that they don’t finish. They’re like, “Oh I can’t read the whole book tomorrow. I’ll just leave it.” If you tell them, “Read chapter one,” even if they’re fifteen, twenty minutes early, they’re like, “Oh yeah, I’ll have to read chapter one,” but they come back to you with the feeling of, “I’ve done this.”
And the thing is when people have done that, when they have done a couple of things, they suddenly realize, “Wow. I now know how to learn it.” And sometimes if you tell them read one chapter, they come back and say, “I couldn’t stop. I had to read ten chapters.” Great, but you want to make sure that they at least hit your goal because then they feel self-fulfilled, they don’t have this like, “Oh I didn’t do what boss told me to do or what we agreed,” right?
But when you can do that, when people learn to do that effectively, that is such a huge win. And that’s how you train your people. I love hiring people who are brand new and have no experience or have been sitting in the basement all of their lives just learning themselves. I love hiring those kinds of people because you can help them shape, you can really help them grow.
Daryl Rosser: And you’re forming a habit for them really, right. It’s the same for us. If you want to start reading a book or week a something, you don’t just start with crushing books, you just, “Okay, I’m going to read ten minutes a day.”
Mads Singers: Yeah, exactly. And the golden rule is … I mean it takes different time. Some people need to do 10 learnings before they caught on to it, some people might do one thing and they’re like, “Wow now I know this stuff, I want to do more. Oh yeah, last week I did this thing and this thing and this thing.” And like sometimes, your mind gets blown. But really it’s about taking the time and patience and do not tell them the answer. It’s so important because the problem with most detail-oriented people, like most SEOs are, is we know it all.
We know the right answer. However, what I’ve realize in life is the other way often works just as well. As in, when someone comes up and tells me, “Oh we should do this thing,” and I’m kind of in the back of my mind saying, “No, that’s the wrong thing.”
Silly enough, sometimes they go and do the wrong thing and sometimes they can get better results than I would have done. So it’s very, very important to not always know it all, but let people do things the way they want to.
Daryl Rosser: And sometimes it’s almost good to let them make that little mistake and then know better.
Mads Singers: Yeah and it’s not even about mistake. For me, it’s about ownership. If someone says oh I wanna put a … let’s say I wanna do an event with 100 people from the company. Great, let’s go. I want to give them the experience. Like when people take initiative, you want to give it them. You want to give them the opportunity, right?
And the point is they take ownership, and that’s the same thing. And delegation is something a lot of people struggle with. And again it’s because, just like the VAs, they delegate tasks rather than responsibility. If you give people ownership instead of … if you tell someone click this button 200 times a day, they don’t know if what shows up on the screen is wrong because all they’ve been told is click this button. If you tell someone … Instead of saying, “Okay, here’s an outreach platform. I want you to send 100 emails a day.” They open the phone book, they take the first 100, I’ve done my job.
If you tell them, “The goal is to get five leads per week. This is how we’ve done it before, here’s the process we follow, but my goal is to do at least five leads.” That encourages them not just to do the volume but also learn and say, “Who actually responded? Who is the right client? How do I figure out … ” Because for me I send 50 mails, but to the right people, than 100 mails to the wrong people, right?
Daryl Rosser: Of course, yeah.
Mads Singers: So most people … the problem is they share the goal right in front of them instead of the end goal.
Daryl Rosser: Here’s the next question that a lot of people ask cause a lot of people have a very time tough time hiring assistants in the Philippines, just team members in the Philippines, whatever you want to call it. And I can imagine a lot of them asking, “How do you have like a Filipino sending emails and qualifying them if you do all that stuff correctly?” Is that just good processes? Is it a mix of hiring the right people and having good processes? How does that …
Mads Singers: So, number one. Hiring people, to do the whole process can be very time consuming. As a manager, you want to do the one piece of the process that’s the interview and the selection. All of this posting the job and all that, don’t waste your time. Actually, the first solution is come to me for all that stuff, but if you are doing it yourself, if you’re hiring someone in your own country or something, the key thing is first of all, get someone else to handle most of the process.
If you’re alone right now and have to do it yourself, go and post a whole bunch of resumes. Some of the key golden rules is look for results. So the challenge with … a lot of SEOs are very detail-oriented. And the problem is detail-oriented people, as most of you can probably agree to, are not good at selling themselves. Right? A lot of detail-oriented people, if you ask them, “Are you great?” They’re like, “I’m okay.” If you talk with a sales guy and you ask him if he’s great, even if he knows like 1% of it, he’ll be like, “Yeah I’m awesome.”
And the problem is most people end up hiring these people who are super-confident, very outgoing and dit dit dit. But the problem is they’re not detail-oriented, they don’t know … like when they sit down and look at an Excel sheet they get confused because an Excel sheet has more than two columns and lots of numbers and they start seeing red. So the key thing is actually look for results.
Daryl Rosser: How?
Mads Singers: If you’re hiring someone to do something … So let’s say you’re hiring someone to do outreach. Look for someone who has done similar skill sets, so that could be … if you’re looking for someone to do customer outreach customer, so write a customer email every time, look for someone with writing experience.
If you’re looking for someone to just produce volume, look for someone who is good at doing things very, very quickly. If you are looking for someone to do the outreach 100% effectively, you want to look for someone who is used to managing large pieces of stuff and information and do it at scale.
So look for those kind of results. So for example, one quick question that’s good to ask is, “Do you prefer to deliver on time but 80% or delayed and 100%? What’s your preference?” So yours would generally be somewhere in the middle, you do a little bit of both, but a lot of SEOs, they will always be 100% but late because that natural mindset is that they-
Daryl Rosser: I’d say I’ve trained myself to be like on time is more important these days, but before I was completely like what you said.
Mads Singers: Yeah, and that actually comes a little bit with you … you’re becoming a little bit more goal-driven. You’re getting more and more drive, basically your personality. But really at an overall level, the key thing is look for the kind of personality, right? If you’re looking for someone who is an accountant or someone to work with numbers, you’re looking for shy people.
So I come up with a good example for that is you’re looking for people that, when you send them an email, they send these responses. Lines and lines and lines of detail. If you’re looking for detail-oriented guy, they send you a one-liner saying, “Yep, that’s cool,” that’s not detail-oriented. If you’re sending an interview question to a detail-oriented person, they’ll want to know, “What time do we speak, what time zone, where do we do the meeting?” They want all the details.
Daryl Rosser: So I have an assistant, an executive assistant that works with me, she’s actually Filipino, and from the first email she sent me just asking all these different questions and stuff, she’s awesome. And I hired her after the first interview. She was epic. She’s been with me over a year now and just the questions she asked and stuff. It was like a gut feeling for me.
Mads Singers: And it sounds like it’s detail orientation.
Daryl Rosser: Yeah.
Mads Singers: So I’ll give you an example. When I was working at IBM, sometimes I’ll get a one-line email, no hello, no footer. Just a one-line email saying, “Can you send the financial report?” And as a very detail-oriented person myself, my question is, “Financial report, is that the daily, the monthly, the yearly?” Like no information, right?
And if you meet someone who is very quick at executing, if it’s a volume question and quality doesn’t matter, that’s a great type of person. Because they’ll get a ton of shit done, and for them it’s much more important to hit the goal than how the quality is.
So if you’re looking for someone, if that’s what you need, that’s the kind of person you need. So looking for deliverables, like the stuff you deliver … So with some jobs like a graphic designer, it makes sense. Look at what else they’ve done graphic design.
Daryl Rosser: Oh that’s easy, yeah.
Mads Singers: For example if you need detail-oriented people, which a lot of SEO is, look for people with like accounting degree, look for people who …
Daryl Rosser: They don’t need to be an SEO right?
Mads Singers: Exactly. A lot of these skills are very transferrable. If you look at people who work in finance, they’re probably really good with numbers or else they wouldn’t work in finance. And again, if you’re looking for a sales guy, you look for the opposite.
If a guy comes to you, knows all the stuff, if you feel he’s shy, you might say all the right things but if the guy can’t walk up to a stranger and say, “My name is blah-blah-blah, I’m about to sell you this shit,” then he’s not gonna be a great sales guy.
And you can learn a lot skills, but you want to utilize people what people are naturally good at. Like I could learn to be in sales, but I would never become as great as someone who naturally is outgoing and assertive personality. I will not, right?
And most people, where they fail, is, similar to those 80-20 we just talked about with SEO, is they focus so much time on trying to fix their weaknesses. No one in the world have been never been successful because they have no weaknesses. They’re successful because they understand what their strength is and they utilize it.
Daryl Rosser: Yeah. 100%.
Mads Singers: That’s the only way to become successful is to look at what are you really freaking good at and then doing that, right? That’s how you succeed.
Daryl Rosser: So back to the management tips, you were saying you did a call that was 10 minutes of what they’re interested in …
Mads Singers: 10 minutes of that, 10 minutes of you, and then 10 minutes of the coaching sort of-
Daryl Rosser: And you do this every week?
Mads Singers: Yeah.
Daryl Rosser: Monday?
Mads Singers: Not necessarily.
Daryl Rosser: Okay.
Mads Singers: Best thing to do is do a reoccurring invite. If you do a reoccurring invite, they know it’s happening. Sometimes it moves a little bit, but it helps you make sure it happens. Now, if you’ve ever worked corporate, you know everyone loves talking to their boss. When you take the time to sit down with an employee, they love you.
Right? Now particularly if you’re not … I mean I’m not a very sort of sociable person. I talk with people a lot. But particularly if you’re an SEO and rarely talk to the staff, it will make a world of difference. And if you sit down and you turn of your phone, you turn off your computer and just focus on them, you will get 800% more out of that employee.
Daryl Rosser: And then my girlfriend would love it if I turned off my phone and spent some time with her like that.
Mads Singers: Yeah. But again, even to that point, it’s more about quality than quantity. A lot of the time, the focus tend to be on, “Oh I want all this time,” but really what matters, even though they might not know it, it’s about the quality. So focus on that instead. So it’s not always a quantity question.
Daryl Rosser: As you scale up and you’ve got … How big is your team now?
Mads Singers: I have about 60-something VAs.
Daryl Rosser: So you’re not calling 60 people every week?
Mads Singers: No, no. So it’s everyone that report directly to you.
Daryl Rosser: Gotcha, okay.
Mads Singers: Right. So I have 4 managers right now to manage different things. And they’re basically the 4 people that I talk to directly. And for me, that’s what you need to do. So again, as a business owner, you rarely want to be managing more than 4, maybe 5 employees. Then generally you’re at a stage where you need more … and often it comes with sort of departments, right.
So an SEO, you maybe have 3 people, you have one doing link-building, you have one doing internal pages or whatever, and it’s starting to get to that point where you either make one of those people the boss of the rest to help manage the overview of that team and then hire someone else to do their job. Or where there’s capacity, maybe they have capacity to do some of that themselves. Or hire someone to do it if you don’t see the potential in the people you have.
Daryl Rosser: Interesting. So ideally, you’d start by hiring a few people, one at a time or whatever, it doesn’t matter. And then over time, if they’re a good fit, you’re gonna kind of move them into a management position to hire people that-
Mads Singers: If they have the capacity.
Daryl Rosser: If … yeah, okay.
Mads Singers: If they have the interest. Like some people don’t want to manage, they just want to sit and do link-building, that’s what they love. Totally okay. But very often the benefit with building up teams from within is the fact that they know your company. The problem can be if you hire someone from the outside to come and manage, they often do things very differently, they’re used to very different things.
The benefit with always bringing people in at the bottom is that they come in at a different level and they sort of look at what’s happening here. If you have someone who is great at SEO coming in to manage your SEO team, they have their own vision, they have their own way of doing things, and often that can distort a little bit with sort of your way of doing things. Not always a bad thing, but it can throw things out of what’s normally happening.
Daryl Rosser: Absolutely.
Mads Singers: So yeah.
Daryl Rosser: Here’s a question then, because when I started out, I went out there and I hired VAs. First it was just little contractors and VAs, and I’d have them build up my own PBNs and have them write the content, have them do the link-building, have them trying … not in a good way, I was just kind of micro-managing everything and overall running a project. And these days, I’m usually recommended people, especially they’re just starting out.
I’m usually saying, “Don’t hire a VA. Just go straight and hire a service for citations. Hire a service for PBN links. Hire a service for this.”
Mads Singers: So this is what I call business decisions. So if you’re doing … Let’s say you have 20 different clients in the same niche, it makes financial sense to have your own PBN. If you run one affiliate site, it doesn’t make financial sense for you to build your own PBNs because they’re only ever going to have one link if you only going to focus on one site.
And by the way, focusing on one site is a great technique. A lot of people in SEO, they always start new projects, and it’s totally … I mean it’s so much easier getting a site from 100 to 1000 bucks than getting it from zero to 100. And when you’ve already done the hard work and then you start a new project, then you have a lot of small projects that are not really making a lot of money.
So if you focus on one site, I would say personally, it doesn’t make sense to build your own PBN. But let’s say you have 25 affiliate sites, then yeah, I would say it could make sense to have your own PBN. Now there’s a lot of ways you can go down on it. If you agree to doing that, you could hire a team, give them ownership to do it. You could buy in many different places finished and built PBNs. You could rent links. But for me, that kind of more business decision or where you want your skill set as the team to sit.
Daryl Rosser: Yeah. Like my thinking, and you may disagree, I don’t know, is when you start out, it doesn’t make sense to try and manage all these different parts of it unless it’s very, very core to the business. And I believe like a PBN, it’s just a tool for ranking. So even if you want to build your own PBN, just hire a service that will set up your PBNs and manage them and do everything for you.
Mads Singers: And I agree to a large extent, because at the end of the day … I mean when you’re first starting out, for sure.
Daryl Rosser: Yeah, that’s exactly what I’m saying.
Mads Singers: When you first start out, you have one client or one website, so you don’t want to own a PBN at that point. But again, it’s much more … I mean I like looking at the mission. So for me, I’m in a point where it’s very easily scalable for me because I’m in the Philippines and getting very cost effective work force, so it’s very cheap for me to do the whole process of scraping domains and get the whole entire process very cheap.
So from a business standpoint, you want to understand what is my strength? So for example, if you’re a super sales guy and your strength is sales, then definitely know you don’t ever want to build a PBN.
Daryl Rosser: It’s outsource it all.
Mads Singers: Yeah, but you can be super successful in SEO. If you’re a top, top sales guy and, again, if you can sell the outcomes rather than the SEO tech nitty-gritty. If you can sell the outcome and just get other people to do it.
At an overall level, when you’re looking at smaller things more than tasks, you’re always looking … from my point of view, you want to see, “Should this be a core part of what I do?” So if you’re an SEO and your expertise is what I call core SEOs or analyzing the side of … everything that’s within that, perhaps doing keyword research and stuff like that and maybe even ordering content. You don’t need to write it, but make sure you have a solid process for getting content the way you want it, is key because that’s your strength.
Now if you’re focused on onpage a lot and you build links but it’s not going to be your strength, then let it go. Don’t focus on PBNs. Don’t focus on … Find all the links.
Daryl Rosser: Absolutely. Slowly wrapping up now, is there any big mistakes or anything you’ll need to watch out for as they’re kind of … you must see a lot of big mistakes entrepreneurs are making as they’re scaling up from zero to 10k, 10k to 50k, 50k to 100k …
Mads Singers: So again, it’s building too wide teams. From a management standpoint, I said as a CEO, as an entrepreneur, don’t try to manage more than five or six people yourself. Because a normal manager can probably handle eight to 10, 12 people, maybe pretty effectively, but when you’re doing everything, when you’re at the top of the food chain, you can’t manage that many people effectively. So you want to make sure you have managers that are doing that, so that’s definitely one challenge.
The other thing is, again going back to what we talked about before, really give responsibility. Outsource responsibility. It’s great that you have a process, but it doesn’t matter if it’s a VA or a regular employee, if you just give people a process and say, “Keep executing. Do this thing,” it might work, but you’re getting so little of the benefit.
You want these people to learn and understand this stuff. You want them to be better than you. They won’t be that the first month, the first three months, but eventually when they do PBNs all the time, whatever they’re doing, they will become better than you, right? And the second you run a business where you have people that are better in every aspect than you, then you’re running the business. Then you’re not doing the work.
Actually my favorite is owning the business rather than running it, because you’re most effective as a manager, as a business owner, when you don’t have to do things, but you can look at … You’re probably in that situation now. You’re saying, “Okay, I can go create awesome content because that’s what I want to do.” I think that’s what takes my business from here to here, right? So the big new steps. That can be, if you’re a local SEO and you want to branch out and do global SEO, that’s the stuff you can start working on while your existing team is doing what they’re already great at.
Daryl Rosser: Exactly. Someone said that, “What do you do with your time? Like you’re hiring this team up and they are starting to do more and more of the work, I was like, “More. The next thing, whatever that is.”
Mads Singers: Exactly. Again, you always want to keep growing things. Even when it’s going well. The problem is if you get stagnant, someone else will come and do it better.
Daryl Rosser: Right. Any final thoughts so we can kind of wrap it up about here?
Mads Singers: No. I think that’s more or less it for me.
Daryl Rosser: Just put you on the spot right there.
Mads Singers: From yesterday with talking with so many SEOs-
Daryl Rosser: That was a long day.
Mads Singers: It was very interesting and I always love helping people and sharing my knowledge so thank you very much
Daryl Rosser: Is there any tools or anything for the guys working remotely teams?
Mads Singers: So what we do, keep it simple. If you have a suite of 10 tools that you’re using all the time … For SEO, I use Ahrefs. There might be certain tools that are slightly better in some things, but it’s more complication. We use one tool, Ahref, and that means there’s one tool we need to train. We use one tool for project management, and then generally, because we have a lot of clients, we use both Slack and Skype because sometimes have a preference. But if you manage your own company, choose one communication channel and try and stick to that.
So that’s basically, for most SEO companies, sort of three main tools. For me it’s probably essential. Because the simpler you can make, the more tools you put into this toolbox, the more training, the more complication there is. And even though it only takes five minutes, it doesn’t just take five minutes.
Daryl Rosser: Absolutely. Final question then. You’re hiring these managers and stuff and you want them to take responsibility and kind of do things themselves and to take ownership of it. Is that kind of like you want them to become the expert at it and then they create the SOPs and stuff if you get into that stuff? You’re not sitting at the top like, “I’m the expert at this, this, this, and this,” and creating all the SOPs because you’d be creating documents all day long, right?
Mads Singers: Often in the beginning you have to create the SOPs because no one else will. But often as a business owner, I recommend. I love … actually fourth tool, Screencast-o-matic. Freaking awesome. You press a cord, you show your screen, you do something. Again, as a business owner, if you get feedback on something or whatever …
The problem is, particularly if you’re remote, “Oh, let’s find time to sit down and do a call.” Maybe it takes 10 seconds, you’re doing it, and send this right away. That’s super helpful. So do the same with SOPs. Instead of creating the SOP, show people, “This is what I’m doing,” and then ideally if you have at least one SOP with a structure, then say, “I would like you, even though you haven’t done this before, when you have done this ten times, I would like you to try and do a document like this.”
Daryl Rosser: And they take ownership of that.
Mads Singers: And they take ownership, right? And then you give them ownership and say, “In the future, I want you to make sure that we update this document at least once a week if anything changes.”
Daryl Rosser: I love that.
Mads Singers: So it’s the end user’s having the ownership of these processes.
Daryl Rosser: Absolutely. Matt, thank you for joining me. It’s been awesome.