Are you looking to manage and scale a successful ecommerce business?
In this episode, Ronnie explains how to start and build up an ecommerce store, how to build up a team to help run the store, and how to scale your business to the point where they provide you with financial freedom.
- 06:35 – The benefits of ecommerce vs Amazon affiliate stores
- 10:33 – Should you use PBNs on your ecommerce stores?
- 13:01 – How to get started with an ecommerce store
- 16:40 – How to pick a winning product
- 29:48 – The biggest lesson Ronnie learnt while running an ecommerce empire
- 34:02 – The best time to start scaling a team
- 45:21 – When to start advertising
Daryl Rosser: Hey guys, Daryl Rosser here, welcome back to another episode of the Lion Zeal Show, I’m here with Ronnie Teja, and we’re talking about e-commerce and how he’s built up a pretty large e-commerce of multiple e-commerce businesses over the last five years, and exactly what he’s done in building that up.
How he’s built up the team, and how ultimately, you’ve stop yourself getting burnt out repeatedly, and actually build it like a real business that allows you to travel and hang out in Chiang Mai, and do cool stuff like that.
So I highly recommend you guys watch this. There’s a lot of cool tips on really scaling up a big business. So check it out, and enjoy.
Hey man, thank you for joining me on the show today. It’s awesome to have you.
Ronnie Teja: Pleasure.
Daryl Rosser: So for anyone who doesn’t know you, do you want to do an introduction as to who you are, what it is you do? Anything like that?
Ronnie Teja: Sure. My name is Ronnie, I’m the CEO and founder of eCom Labs, I run in about eight different e-com verticals, and I have a company, which makes about [beep] dollars a year.
Daryl Rosser: Nice start, that was awesome. How did you get into e-commerce stuff?
Ronnie Teja: I used in BBC, so I used to do digital marketing for Best Buy, back in the day. Then I did digital marketing for a lot of big brands in Australia. Then I thought, “If I’m making money for other people, why am I not making money for myself?”
Daryl Rosser: Fair enough.
Ronnie Teja: So I looked at the market and I found some niches, and I started targeting them, and that’s … And here we are. So I lead a team of about 40 people globally. About eight of them based in Vancouver.
We’ve got a full time call center in the Philippines, I’ve got 15 to 20 people. I’ve got a few developers in Brazil and India, and South Africa.
Daryl Rosser: Cool, man. How long has it been since you started out on your own, to today?
Ronnie Teja: It’s been five years.
Daryl Rosser: Wow. It goes fast, right?
Ronnie Teja: Oh, hell, yeah. I remember when I started. For anybody who thinks that you don’t need to work for your goals, I think for the first six months, it was just myself. I was the PPC guy, I was customer care. I was …
Daryl Rosser: Did you have a team page, “I’m this person, this person”?
Ronnie Teja: Yeah, my name was John Smith, and Ronnie.
Daryl Rosser: Nice.
Ronnie Teja: Depending on the time of the day.
Daryl Rosser: And did it go smoothly from day one? You just set up a site, and say, “Oh, wow, I’m making money off of it.”?
Ronnie Teja: No, it wasn’t that smooth. I think the problem was when I started I chose the wrong platform. So when we started, we chose Magento, which was a very develop-intensive platform, so it was with Shopify.
I don’t use Shopify, still. I still use Magento simply because it’s open source, and the fees that I pay at Magento is quite low, compared to say, Shopify, which is roughly about between 5% to 6%. It’s already out of your pocket when you make your first sale.
Daryl Rosser: Interesting.
Ronnie Teja: Then I think of course it was the problem finding a developer, getting in touch with the right people, bad hiring decisions, and all that. You have to go through that whole cycle I guess, yourself.
Daryl Rosser: You have to, yeah.
Ronnie Teja: Yeah, you have to, yeah. Then I believe my first break came after, let’s say, two to three weeks into the business, by getting a good developer on the site. I think having a good developer, or at least a part-time dev who can do your work for you, would really, really help out.
Daryl Rosser: So someone starting out now, and they don’t have a big budget. Would you recommend they go to Magento and get a part-time developer, or just suck up the fees for that while, and use Shopify?
Ronnie Teja: I’d just suck up the fees for a while, build your brand on Shopify. I think it’s good to have that. Or, even WordPress, for example. Start with something which is less development centered, because developers do cost a lot of money. So I’d say suck it up, get the right extensions on Shopify.
Shopify actually integrates to a lot of other things. It’ll integrate with eBay, with Amazon. So if you intend to have an Amazon store in e-commerce, I think that’s good. I think they just announced the eBay integration last week, which is pretty big, so now you’re reaching another 160 million people.
So it’s good that way, but I’d say it has a lot of limits because it’s … Magento’s, it’s … You could basically have a template and you can do whatever you want with the template at the end of the day, and you can do whatever you want with the back end.
Daryl Rosser: It’s yours.
Ronnie Teja: It’s yours, yeah, so it’s fully customizable. You can have whatever design you want. But at Shopify, you have to work within a box.
Of course, Shopify will say you can switch over to Shopify Plus, which costs over $2,000 a month, U.S., where you can have that freedom, but for that same amount of money, 24 grand a year, I’m pretty sure you’ll get a developer cheaper than that.
Daryl Rosser: Fair enough, yeah. How important to SEO to what you’re doing with your stores?
Ronnie Teja: Our thing is, in some of our stores we are resellers, and the problem with being a reseller for SEO, I believe, is like how can you beat the manufacture, who’s products you’re selling, at the end of the day?
If not that, the question for us becomes is, “How are you going to beat Amazon? How are you going to beat eBay? How are you going to beat Best Buy?” How are you going to beat the big, preferred Google brands, because of course they’ve got a lot of brand rally behind them.
So, that’s one of our biggest challenges at the moment, and I think PBNs have helped us get there. I think that in some cases having high quality links have helped us get there. I think having a decent team that actually works.
Like forum marketing, for example. I think that’s a great example of being able to help your customer, like bouncing the question in different forums, is a big idea. So always look at industry, see what is a forum related to it. Always be there helping your customer. Even go out there and start-
Daryl Rosser: Spamming every day.
Ronnie Teja: You’re literally spamming yourself. I think that’s never a good idea. I’ve seen a lot of people who’ve don it, and I think there’s a reason why forums ban your accounts for that.
I think one of the things with e-commerce is that the more products you have, and the more sort of private label you go, that’s definitely helped out in the SEO world, because it’s all about creating your own brand, and having a good brand voice. So although we might be a reseller for certain products, you probably want to grow your brand with say another 100 to 200 SKUs on the side, which are private label.
So for example, if I’m selling routers from Cisco, I could have Ronnie’s Routers going out tomorrow, which might be able to help out. Which are probably cheaper, but of the same standard quality as Cisco.
Daryl Rosser: Okay, interesting. From your opinion, as an e-com guy, why do you do e-com, and then build up your own stores, when other investors just set up a review site of different routers, and just forward them to Amazon, and then get a 5%, 10% or whatever the commission is?
Ronnie Teja: Amazon’s commission rates are 4%, and basically when you are working with Amazon, there’s no easy way to say this, you’re Amazon’s bitch.
Daryl Rosser: Yeah.
Ronnie Teja: So essentially what it is, whatever Amazon says. Amazon says, “Jump,” and you have to ask, “How high?” I believe instead of even having an Amazon store … I know that I’ve had issues with them recently where Amazon gives its customers 100% refund guarantee.
So what that means, if anything ever comes to you, Amazon will say, “Oh, you want a refund? No problem sir, here you go.” So although somebody else is buying something from me, and says, “Oh, I don’t like this router anymore,” you could just basically mail Amazon and say, “Hey, I don’t like this router anymore.” So Amazon will say, number one, “Mr. Ronnie, you pretty big. 8% returns, you will have to return this product. Sorry you lost on the sale.” First one.
Second one, they will then charge me for mailing the product back.
Daryl Rosser: No way? I didn’t know that.
Ronnie Teja: Yeah, so there you go. So this is Amazon’s latest venture into dealing with FBA businesses and everything else in general. Even when you’re looking at, say if you’re looking at affiliate? I think if you’re thinking affiliate, I think you’re thinking of the world in a smaller way.
I think, think about affiliate, think about FBA, and then think about e-commerce. Or, think about e-commerce, think about affiliate, and think about FBA. I would always put it this way.
Daryl Rosser: Yeah, I’m not in e-com, but what I love about it, is that you’re building a real brand, right? Like what you were saying before. You’re not just building this thin little site that promotes some affiliate products. It’s like “This is my real brand, that people come to, and buy from.”
Ronnie Teja: Oh for sure. I think it doesn’t have to be like the situation you’re in. Some people, I’m not the most technical person, right? But my background’s in marketing, so marketing, and branding, and advertising, that comes quite easy to me.
But, as somebody like yourself, who’s very technical, and who knows affiliate in and out, and who knows how to crack the code on Google and Amazon and everything else, I think you guys would do much, much, better than that. So it depends on what your strengths are, and how you play the field of marketing them. I think that’s the most important part.
Here’s a little tidbit. If you’re in the affiliate space, and if you are looking to do something different. I’d say, have a look at Walmart’s affiliate program. Walmart has spent roughly about five to six billion dollars last year, just running catch-up for Amazon. They bought Jet.com for three billion.
They bought ShoeBuy.com for another 100 million. They bought a few electronics manufacturers as well, and I know they’re going to buy Newegg in San Diego, as well, so if that’s not a sign of what Walmart’s acquisition … That’s a telltale sign that Walmart’s trying to build up a massive arsenal to start hitting back at Amazon, right?
Amazon became so big because of its affiliates. At the end of the day, the reason why Amazon … It’s simply because of the affiliate commissions that Amazon was giving. I’m pretty perturbed by the fact that Amazon is forgetting the very people that made Amazon.
Daryl Rosser: Yeah, they’re like, “We’ve grown it now.”
Ronnie Teja: Yeah, “We’ve outgrown you, good-bye. Thank you very much. We don’t need you anymore.” Right?
Daryl Rosser: Yeah, yeah.
Ronnie Teja: “So now you’ve become a big brand, it’s that …” and that’s fine.
So I would almost use Walmart as an opportunity to actually start hitting at their affiliate program. I know the affiliate commissions at Walmart will be much, much, higher than it will be on Amazon, because of course they’re lagging behind. They want to be number one.
You know what, if you’re getting 6% to 8% on Walmart, why not do it? You’d probably want to raise your store, your products in the store, with Walmart products versus Amazon production.
Daryl Rosser: Cool man, so I’m curious. We were talking about building legit brands, and this heretical feeling about e-commerce, so how do you feel … You said you use PBNs, and it helps you with ranking them. How do you feel about PBNs when you’re trying to build up this long term brand? Do you have any fears of …
Ronnie Teja: Of course, we have. I have a lot of fears about that. I don’t know when the next upgrade is going to come out. I know that Google is looking to roll out an upgrade, where … But the thing is, if you really don’t know what Google’s going to do, they’ll probably in the long term going to give less value to the ranks. So you know that whole pie chart, where it goes, “Okay, how much percentage of your total site is ranked by factor?” And it’s just a guess. We don’t what the actual algorithm is.
But, I think that the amount of weightage that Google will give to links in the long run, may just decrease. I’m just saying may, I’m not an expert, but-
Daryl Rosser: Sure.
Ronnie Teja: The thing is also that Google’s actively looking out for PBNs. They’re actively looking out, to hammer down some sites. So we try and keep our PBNs quite well hidden. But you just want to make sure that event the PBNs that you have, they have good quality content, they look like legitimate sites.
You don’t have something that you just put up yesterday and you’re trying to do with spare, or with thin content. I think that’s an important part of it.
Daryl Rosser: And it’s worth, it just for the rankings.
Ronnie Teja: Yeah, I think so. Say for example, let’s say I’m in the niche of the routers, and if I’m getting a link back from a router site, which is a part of my PBN group, I’d probably want to have a lot of content related to routers, not just one or two pages, but probably about 50 pages at least.
So it looks legitimate, versus just buying a use-header, and just randomly putting your link in there, which I think a lot of people are doing at the moment. Which is not really fine.
Daryl Rosser: Yeah, absolutely. So for the SEO guys, we have a lot of guys that are good at ranking. They can go out and build PBNs, and get rankings, but maybe they’ve just a little bit of affiliate before.
Maybe they’ve done nothing, and are just starting out. How do they get started with e-commerce? What is their first steps? When you said earlier, you got into e-com, you picked a niche, then before you know it you’ve got a big team and a flat. I imagine there’s a lot of very core steps in between that process.
Ronnie Teja: Oh, for sure. I think the first and foremost thing is you need to find out your products. I’d say go to AliExpress, or other people have drop-shipping stores. That’s pretty hot right now. Test your budgets out. Go to Facebook. Test your Facebook ads. I think that’s one thing I would do, to find your winning product.
Of course, taking it to step number one. Where is your product coming from? How is it? What’s the quality of your product?
Daryl Rosser: How do you find these products, and pick a niche that you’re going to go into, as well?
Ronnie Teja: Yeah, that’s kind of interesting. A lot of people I know go to AliExpress, and they say, “Okay, I’m just going to go pick up product from AliExpress, and I’m going to advertise it.” But people don’t realize, is that a lot of the normal customers that are there, they’re not dumb.
They know, which. AliExpress is hitting back on them with a massive advertising budget this Black Friday. The Singles Day, which is 11/11, which is coming up as well, and you’ve got to understand that the customer’s not … Some people end up treating their customers as stupid. I’m saying, “The customer’s your wife, so don’t think they’re stupid.”
Daryl Rosser: David, I think, used to say that.
Ronnie Teja: Yeah, yeah, for sure. So just coming in and focusing on the product itself, you can … There’s fairs out there? There’s the Canton Fair, which is my favorite one, which happens in three phases over one month, in Guangzhou, in China. So there’s one in October and there’s one in March.
If you just want to go out picking a product and picking a decent supplier, just go. There’s a few sources you can rent it, in Hong Kong.
You can even pick a numbered product on AliExpress. Just advertise it on Facebook. See what’s working out for you, and then once you know that product X, like let’s say a camera strap, is working out for you, maybe go have a chat with the supplier.
With the supplier, what their needs are, because the sourcing in China works really, really differently, because in some cases, like for example AliExpress, people will wait for a minimum order to hit, before they start shipping out.
Daryl Rosser: Ah, okay, yeah.
Ronnie Teja: So they need to be able to do 300 units. Say for example you have to wait for this customer to hit 300 units, and you’ve already got 100 orders waiting. You cannot fulfill those 100 orders until the time you’ve hit 300 orders with this particular supplier.
Daryl Rosser: That’s right, yeah.
Ronnie Teja: In some cases, which is the easier way in this case, to source would be to literally talk to your supplier and say, “I’ve ready to pay the extra dollar, extra two dollars per product, but you need to be able to ship them one by one.” So, don’t be penny wise and pound foolish.
Daryl Rosser: This is important, you have to actually check this out first, right?
Ronnie Teja: Yeah for sure, yeah. So a lot of people end up being penny wise and pound foolish, in that scenario.
Daryl Rosser: Okay, I like what you’re saying, I’m a big fan of this as well, so you’re saying test it on Facebook ads first, because it’s instant. You can just put $50 into it whenever, and you know straight away.
Ronnie Teja: Yeah, for sure. We have large advertising budgets for our sites at the moment, and I think whenever we want to test a new product out, whenever we want a new product, of course we carry … We have the main brand names as a reseller. So we know what sells well, which doesn’t sell well.
That’s the brand that we have, and we can probably just say, “Hey, this is working well. We can just copy it, and just make our own brand out of it.” Right?
Daryl Rosser: Yeah.
Ronnie Teja: Number two, is if you look at some of the sites. Say you go to Best Buy today. On Best Buy, you just go check out the top seller section. That’s a good hint, it’ll tell you what the top sellers are, what the best deals are. I know sites like, I’m speaking strictly from electronics, I’m sure there’s other ways, but I’m …
Daryl Rosser: Yeah.
Ronnie Teja: If you go to Amazon, you look at the top sellers in Amazon. On Amazon, actually, a good idea to do is to look at the Amazon private label stuff. Those are Amazon’s money makers.
Or, even look at the loss leaders in Amazon. So, loss leader would be a product which Amazon actually takes a loss on, to be able to get in front of the customer. Those are the ones you probably want to hit.
But, I mean loss leaders in Amazon? Probably not a good idea because Amazon’s going to be dominating that space, but definitely look at Amazon Basics. See what Amazon Basics is selling. You can probably do the same thing as what Amazon Basics is doing, and then make a private label brand out of that.
Daryl Rosser: When you pick any products, is there specific things you’re looking for? Do you want a certain price point, or a …?
Ronnie Teja: Yeah, see that’s an interesting question, especially in that’s where it gets tied into sourcing as well. So, when you end up making a product, there’s a few things you need to …Of course, when it comes to China, quality is always, always, you have to be careful of. Finding the right supplier. And of course, if you’re starting an e-com business, the payment terms in China work very differently than they do in the West.
There’s no 30-month period in China. It’s 30% up front, and then 70% on delivery. You have to be very, very, very, specific to your needs.
I think my favorite example of this is the other day, there was a Kickstarter project of a cube, fidget-spinner, and they raised about $4 million. But they did not send the factory in China the right specs.
So they manufactured 200,000 units, and at the end of the day, they go to the factory and say, “I’m not going to pay you for these 200,000 units, because it’s not to spec.” But, these guys, the suppliers, they screwed up.
The guy’s basically waiting for his cash, and guy says, “No, I’m not going to give you any cash.” So guess what? The Chinese guy just says, “Hey, here’s 200,000 products. I’m going to sell them for $1 a piece, and I’m going to make the money back.” Guess what happened with the Kickstarter? It just closed down. No people made any money out of that.
I think Kickstarter’s also, it’s a hidden gem if you use it properly. I think if you have an idea for an innovative product by yourself, do a Kickstarter. If you think you can ease people’s lives by making something, I think it’s important. But then, there are people who actually do a video promotion and promotions on Kickstarter free, but they take a commission out of it.
Daryl Rosser: Yeah, I guess the video part, I’ve seen a few Kickstarter projects, the video’s a big, big, thing there.
Ronnie Teja: It’s a big deal, for sure. Before we started in watches … Another funny story. We were six months into this watch project, of making these watches, and then somehow we ended up going to Kickstarter, and we see somebody … And you have to be ready for this.
Somebody has the same logo as us, they’re from the same city, Vancouver, and all of a sudden, six months in, you’ve done all these designs. The designs look super-similar, and you’re like, “What the hell?” So then you have to go back to the drawing board again. So remember your idea is almost never the best idea. They’re always 15, 20 people who are thinking about it.
Daryl Rosser: Absolutely. So what’s the difference between your business set up, and what you’re focusing on, when you start making say, $100k a year. [beep] a year?, [beep] a year? Good question.
Ronnie Teja: It’s a great question because always, it’s good to grow. I think it’s important to have that drive and motivation to grow. I feel that when I was making [beep] dollars a yeah, everything was centered around me. Now that we are making a lot more, I think it’s better to have middle management.
I think having processes, having SOPs, having technical know-how. I think definitely it helps, and having … There’s no harm in just letting go of certain responsibilities. So for example, at some point of time I used to always be known in every little, nitty gritty of the company, and I said, “You know what?
If I let go of this, and hire somebody to actually take care of the management,” of the call center, for example, in the Philippines, which use to take up most of my day. I said, “Okay, going to hire somebody, and their job is just to manage the call center.”
And guess what? Now, all of a sudden I have another extra eight hours a day, that I can actually work on building the business. So you have to look at the opportunity cost of it. I think having a strong middle management is really important. Really, really, important.
For example, for myself a good example is I don’t know PHP. So, hire a guy that knows PHP, trust him, and you qualify them. Then you say, “Okay, this guy’s probably the right material to be my CTO,” or something, and you hire them, to hire developers.
So you just step back from the processes, and find out what the opportunity cost is, at the end of the day, for you to grow in two ways. One, as a human being, as an entrepreneur. Like for example, every example every entrepreneur has a lot of doubts. I think it’s good to work on those things.
I think I’ve worked on my health. So go to work on that for a while. Then, I think it’s important to be able to grow your professional need. So I think professionally, it will be something like, “Okay, what is my management style? How do I interact with people?”
Something that I found very insightful over the last few weeks is this training course that I’m taking. It’s like, “What personality types are on my team? How do I manage them?” Things I never thought about before.
Daryl Rosser: Yeah, that’s very fascinating. I like that you’re still buying courses, and still going out there and learning. People seem to think that you get to a certain level, you’re just, like, “Oh, we’re good now. We’re doing well. Everything’s done.” Like, “I know my shit.” You’re constantly going out there and learning, right?
Ronnie Teja: Yeah, it’s really, really, important to constantly be upgrading yourself. I think it’s, if you’re not making yourself better every day, even by a little bit, I think then you’ve lost the power and the feel to become an entrepreneur.
Daryl Rosser: Absolutely. Is there any points in growing your … This is multiple stores right? You’re not just like one, big-
Ronnie Teja: Yes.
Daryl Rosser: Store.
Ronnie Teja: No, we are multiple stores, yeah.
Daryl Rosser: Is there any point in growing these up, that you’ve got stuck for a period of time?
Ronnie Teja: Yeah, it’s happened, definitely I can speak to it. October was a month like that, where we’d seen continuous growth in all stores, year over year, month over month, no problems, and we got stuck in October. We were in this rut, and it’s my fault. We should have looked for alternate ways to be able to grow the store.
I think when it comes to growth, you have to look at what sort of growth are you looking for. Are you looking for growth in revenue? Fair enough, I mean we store, but the good part that came about it is, we had growth in other sectors. So we had growth in say for examples, our call center statistics.
So, in terms of customer satisfaction, in terms of return rates. So, overall, the gross was of course stagnant, but the net actually we made more money on. So it gives you some time to actually step back and say, “Hey, maybe we need to look at a few things to make ourselves look a little better.” But you know, I’m kind of excited about November, December, January, which is shopping season.
Daryl Rosser: Yeah, I bet.
Ronnie Teja: Yeah so it’s like, so make sure. We took that month, we said, “Okay, it’s fine.” Worked on our websites, made sure they were faster. Made sure they were able to bear the load. Made sure everything happens, because it’s just like that calm before the storm. So it’s no problems there.
Daryl Rosser: That’s interesting. You mentioned you have a call center in the Philippines.
Ronnie Teja: Yes.
Daryl Rosser: They take in-bound calls, I guess, from the sites?
Ronnie Teja: Yeah, yeah. That was one of the first things that I think I recommend to anybody. Is, if you’re setting up a store, make sure you have customer service to back it up, because I think everybody’s a little spoiled by Amazon too, in the sense that everybody wants a 24 to 48 hour refund. Everybody want the 24/7 call, this 24/7 service.
But I think for us also, it’s quite different because when I started the store, I wanted to be treated like a customer. So you have to think like the customer. Put yourself in the customer’s shoes. What exactly do they want? Is it basically, are you accessible to them all time? A bunch of time? Are you just a 9:00 to 5:00 call center? 9:00 to 5:00 isn’t going to cut it, man. It’s like, if all of my competitors are 9:00 to 5:00, how am I going to compete my competitors tomorrow? I want a 24/7, 365, call center, open on Christmas Day, open on New Year’s, working their ass off.
Daryl Rosser: That’s awesome.
Ronnie Teja: And you know, that’s something that gives us a competitive edge, that not a lot of people actually think about, or to even look at.
Daryl Rosser: That’s building that real brand again, right?
Ronnie Teja: Yes.
Daryl Rosser: It’s not just a little, tiny, store, it’s like 24/7, close up. We’re a real company.
Ronnie Teja: Correct, correct. It’s like you don’t seem like a mom-and-pop shop. You’re right. It’s good to be a mom-and-pop shop, if you’re a hipster, for sure, but if you’re looking at building a real brand, with some real oomph behind it, yes, I think it’s important to have a call center behind it.
I think in the Philippines also, a lot of people have an aversion to having the call center in the Philippines or India, or any other place. I think, or I believe, having been through the process, I think it’s all upon you. How well are you explaining the tasks to your team? How in-depth are you going with their training.
Like, even for our team leaders in the Philippines, they have courses on sales training, and management, and leadership that I buy for them every two weeks. For them to grow as well. So I think the last thing we bought for them was a cryptocurrency course, because we were interested in investing in cryptocurrency.
So and of course I think it’s important to go. Really sit down, and visit them. I think every six months I’m in the Philippines. I’m with my whole team, and we go do team retreats to bring them out their shell.
Daryl Rosser: That’s pretty awesome.
Ronnie Teja: Yeah, it’s good to have that. Have a few beers with your team, or whatever. Find out what it is, bring the families out. I think they all appreciate it, because you come back with motivated employees.
Daryl Rosser: Absolutely. How many people report directly to you?
Ronnie Teja: Now? I have about five people, out of 40.
Daryl Rosser: And what are those different responsibilities?
Ronnie Teja: I have the person who leads our call center team in the Philippines, she’s awesome. Then we’ve got the head of operations and marketing, who’s job is just to take care of the ops and everything else. I head CTO, of course, we need that. Head of design. We definitely invest a lot in design, we have about three or four designers, and I think-
Daryl Rosser: That’s important.
Ronnie Teja: Yeah, it’s very important. I think in e-commerce it’s really important to have the right designer on your side. I think it’s a lot of people, sometimes just they build sites and they let them run by itself, and they never go with the trends. Some of the sites that I see, that are in the niche, people haven’t upgraded their sites for ages. So it’s kind of crazy.
Daryl Rosser: No, I love this stuff, because especially in the SEO world, we’re so obsessed with organic traffic especially, but even just tracking in general, that we completely forget about like you were mentioning, like having the sales team, like updating your design, having a developer to improve the site constantly.
Ronnie Teja: Yeah, I think it’s an investment that’ll take you a lot further. I think when you’re starting out, it does make sense to have a one-man show, like I was saying initially, but I think once you have some money … What a lot of people don’t realize, invest in your business.
It’s like, maybe my pay check from my company, although it’s a large one, it’s still $60,000 a year. Everything else that I make goes back to my company. It’s that reinvestment, and it’s that hunger to grow, that I think that’s going to get us to the next level.
Daryl Rosser: Where are you based now?
Ronnie Teja: At the moment? In Vancouver, but I travel around. So I’ll do two months in Vancouver, and I’ll do a month, a month and a half at some place. So I was living in Budapest this last summer-
Daryl Rosser: Cool.
Ronnie Teja: And I was living in Cape Town, in January. So it’s kind of fun.
Daryl Rosser: Nice, man. So you were able to just travel, and the team will just work remote from you, I guess?
Ronnie Teja: Yeah, for sure. I just try and set my hours to overlap with my team in Vancouver. So, it’s going to be … I think Asia’s sort of a bad time zone for that, but there’s at least three or four hours, I think, that I can work with my team on a daily basis. So if there’s any issues, any qualms, anything else, I think that definitely works out.
I think something that I’m pretty hand-on as well, coming back to a previous question, at the moment is advertising, because that’s my background. So I have knowledge about PPC, so I know okay, how much everything costs, what your clicks cost should be at. Of course, we’re a business, so of course every dollar I put in, I need to know how much dollars I’m getting back out of it. So you have to always be monitoring every day. But not freaking out, if you had a bad day. Everybody has bad days.
Daryl Rosser: Absolutely, yeah.
Ronnie Teja: But, you have to look at it in the long run.
Daryl Rosser: What else are you specifically working on yourself today, because you’ve got quite a lot of people working for you. I imagine you’re constantly off-loading more, and more, and more.
Ronnie Teja: I’m working with marketers. Edward Charles, so that’s a platform where we want to have curated supplies for SEO, for SEO developers. It’s actually to give back to the community as well, SEO community as well. We just won the top 10% of all the SEO suppliers and developers.
Yeah, so that’s number one, and of course we’ve got the e-com. The e-com sites, which are like a big thing in the middle. Then we of course, I think my tasks for the moment are mostly maintaining and managing the business.
Daryl Rosser: Okay.
Ronnie Teja: So of course being an entrepreneur, I’m sure you could speak to it as well, you always have these weird ideas of doing something new every day. So now I have an Excel sheet, and I put them in an Excel sheet and I go visit them, revisit them, every three weeks to see if it’s still a viable option or not.
Daryl Rosser: That’s awesome, man. Cool. This is really, really, interesting.
Ronnie Teja: I appreciate it.
Daryl Rosser: So what is the big lessons you had over … You’ve grown a lot over the five years, you went from zero to [beep]. What are those huge lessons, that maybe I just haven’t asked the right question yet? That you’ve learnt over that period?
Ronnie Teja: Oh, there’s a lot but-
Daryl Rosser: I bet.
Ronnie Teja: The big ones? I think that I was not so good at, and I’ll really admit it, I was really lazy at, was hiring the right people. I think to have the right. Oh, for sure. I think I can understand why you need the right person to be able to work for you, and I think my hiring practices have been quite loose, until I put this middle management into place.
So now it’s their job to go hire the people, because it’s their ass on the line. But I think it’s really, really important to have the right team, and right sort of background to be able to … Okay, so I’ll put this in a different way.
Daryl Rosser: Okay.
Ronnie Teja: If you make the wrong decision of hiring someone, you spend all this time training them, which is about say, three or four weeks. Then, all of a sudden after four weeks you realize this person is not cut for the company.
So now you’ve lost about, let’s say, you’ve lost a salary of a month, which is three or four grand, plus you’ve lost your time, what is your opportunity cost? That’s another four grand. So you’ve lost eight grand in one month, making the wrong hire.
I’ve run into a similar situation where I asked … It might sound a bit weird, but we use Hubstaff. So if you work for us, and you’ve contracted to us for eight hours, Hubstaff is a software that you just install on your employee’s computer, and you just look at the activity rate, and you at how long they’ll run.
So it’s a good tell, to see if this person’s working or not, and in some cases I’ve had these people who are just watching SEO videos online for two, three, hours of the day. I’m like, “Man, I’ve hired you to do SEO, not to watch videos.” You’re trying to make sense of it. Sometimes they’re just watching horror movies or something. It’s like, “Dude, this is like … You know there’s Hubstaff running on your computer. Why would you do that?”
They’re like, “Oh, well, you know, it’s training.”
It’s like, “Horror’s not training, man,” so that’s where my biggest lesson is. I’ve definitely not been too good at it, but now I’ve hired the people who are better than me, at it.
Daryl Rosser: Yeah. There’s been a time, as you pointed out I agree with everything you just said, but we someone I was speaking to yesterday, and he absolutely has to hire someone. He’s at the perfect point to hire someone. His revenue’s growing, and I’m like, “Please hire someone, you need it to scale up.” There’s a lot of benefits to doing that. But, he’s seeing you say that sort of thing, and he’s like, “Oh shit, what if I hire that wrong person, and what if it all goes wrong? What if I waste a lot of money?”
Ronnie Teja: Well yeah. You’ve taken the risk of running a business, why not take the risk of hiring the right or wrong employee? If you want to scale … Sorry man, I got to say this, this is stupid, it’s stupid. You have a business, which is growing, you can’t manage everything by yourself. I’ve been in that situation. It’s going to catch up to you.
Daryl Rosser: Absolutely, yeah.
Ronnie Teja: You’re going to get burnt out. You’re going to get angry. You’re going to get frustrated. You’re going to start hating life. Your life is not just about being an entrepreneur. Your life is go travel. Your life is to go to good restaurants, get some drinks with your friends. You want to enjoy this journey. The company is not your life.
Daryl Rosser: Absolutely, I 100% agree.
Ronnie Teja: I think it’s important. Of course, as a business owner you always think it’s your life, but no, it’s not. I think to be able to get your head out of your butt, and be able to at least get outside and see what’s going on, I think it’s very important.
I met a lot of entrepreneurs who do exactly what you, the suggestion that you mentioned. They haven’t hired anybody. They’re frustrated as hell. They spend their time just working all day, and by the time they’re 40 or something, or 50, whatever the hell it is, it’s like life’s just passed you by. And, you’re like, “Oh, I could have been in Cape Town. I could have been in Budapest.
I could have been in Ethiopia. I could have been traveling and seeing different things. I could have gone to a music festival, I could have gone.” It’s like there’s so many options out there.
Daryl Rosser: How do you know when it’s the right time to hire? Especially that first person. It’s like a very big move, isn’t it?
Ronnie Teja: Yeah, I think so. In my case, I’ve been quite lucky that I had a friend who was an entrepreneur, and who runs a company much bigger than mine. He also has a lot of remote workers, and all that. So, I had that sort of guidance from a friend. My college room mate, actually. So …
Daryl Rosser: Cool.
Ronnie Teja: Yeah. So he actually helped me out a lot. In everybody else’s cases, I think the SEO conference where we were at, talk to some people man.
Daryl Rosser: Absolutely, get out there and meet them.
Ronnie Teja: Yeah, why not? It’s like talk to Dan, talk to Charles, talk to whoever it is, right?
Daryl Rosser: Yeah.
Ronnie Teja: Talk to people, and talk to them about growing the business. What’s the worse that could happen? What are you going to say, “No”? I don’t think so. It’s like, “Hey, I see this guy. He needs some help, and he’s coming to me for help.” It’s going to be pretty much a big dick move, if you say, “Oh, I don’t want to give you my secrets.”
So I think that’s one thing, and when it comes to hiring your person number one, or hiring whoever it is, you have to look at where the biggest space in your company’s going to be. For us, it was development, and I wasn’t good at it the first time. The first few times, in fact. I went through five developers, and one of these developers basically stole money from us too.
Daryl Rosser: Oh, wow.
Ronnie Teja: So you have to be ready for these things. These are like life lessons, man, until the time I got to the one. It’s like having a girlfriend. You go through a lot of girlfriends, until the time you meet the one. So it’s kind of like that. That’s why, like I said, my biggest issue was hiring the right people.
I’m sure some people have very strict hiring processes. Ben Horowitz has a book about it, about hiring the right employees, and all that. So I think it’s very important to have that, see where the connect is, and all that. Some peoples say for all you know, they could be the next Mark Zuckerberg, but they’re not, so …
Daryl Rosser: What has been your drive to build it to this level? I see a lot of guys that will cap out at $10,000, $20,000 a month. Like, “I’m living good now, I’ve got a good lifestyle.” What makes you want to scale up so much?
Ronnie Teja: I think initially it was the money, but I think right now, the money doesn’t really matter as much.
Daryl Rosser: It’s not going to make that much of a difference, right?
Ronnie Teja: It doesn’t make that much of a difference. I think it’s very good to okay, wake up, look at your bank account, “Oh, so good.” But it’s like there’s nothing that drives me about money anymore. I think it’s about building an organization. Building a brand that lasts, building a mark on the community. I think that actually would be my driver. I think-
Daryl Rosser: That’s cool.
Ronnie Teja: -Having the right people that you work with.
I remember when I used to be employed by the Canadian CEO, at Best Buy or some other places. I would wake up in the morning on a Monday, we’ve all done this. Say Monday morning, it’s like, “God, I got to go to work.” It’s like, I think you should quit those jobs. There’s no use to be working.
You know what, here’s a good story. Before I started my business, I had an interview with Shopify, to work with them, and I’m glad I never got that job, because if I had got that job five years ago, I wouldn’t be here. And it’s something like that’s important.
I think that is sounds weird, but people say, “Oh, follow your dreams.” Maybe don’t jump in, 100%. Try and do something on the side. Have a side project at all times. It could be learning, it could be something else, but it’s important. I think that drive to do something out of your 9:00 to 5:00, or whatever it is, on the side, you never know.
Shopify’s a great example of it. Shopify is a side project. It was never the main project.
Daryl Rosser: Oh, really?
Ronnie Teja: Yes, it was never the main project of the company. Shopify was basically a side project for these guys to get together, they wanted to sell some Oreos or something online. That was pretty much it. Then someone said, “Hm, you know what? We could make something out of this.”
So this is how, you know like your bastard projects, can be something really big.
Daryl Rosser: I mean this whole show, what we do here, is a side project. We just, “I’m going to create a blog and share some cool content,” and then it blew up.
Ronnie Teja: That’s awesome, right? There you go. It’s just like this one thing that you guys have a passion, and it’s turned into something completely different, and a lot of people watch it. A lot of people love it.
Daryl Rosser: Yeah.
Ronnie Teja: So I think it’s important to have that in your life.
Daryl Rosser: Are you interested or passionate about every niche that you’re in, with your e-commerce stores?
Ronnie Teja: Oh, hell yeah.
Daryl Rosser: Yeah?
Ronnie Teja: Oh, hell yeah, always am. It’s like I wouldn’t be doing it otherwise. I think, yeah, it’s not like I’m a greasy merchant whose like just sitting there, counting his notes in the back of the shop. It’s not like that. But, I’ve got to be like, if I don’t believe in it, if I don’t like the quality.
I’ve been to the factories where all of our stuff is made. It’s like if I don’t believe in the quality, if don’t even like the factory. We’ve changed factories overnight, because we didn’t like that. It’s like we’ve lost money over it, but that’s fine, because you want to be doing business with the right kind of people too.
You have to be passionate about the people, about your job, about what you’re selling, about the kind of people you’re surrounding yourself with. I think it comes down to people. The more I talk to you, I think it’s a very big driving factor in a company.
Or, yeah, I don’t know, some people are winded differently. I’m a people’s person, or something like that.
Daryl Rosser: That’s cool.
Ronnie Teja: Yeah, I draw a lot of strength from being social.
Daryl Rosser: I’m going to guess that you love what you’re doing, right?
Ronnie Teja: Yeah.
Daryl Rosser: That awesome, but especially as you’re scaling up, so through the beginner stages, not everything you do is awesome. Like, I was super-passionate about creating, adding all these products to the site, and stuff like that right? You have to go through the process.
Ronnie Teja: I burnt out.
Daryl Rosser: Okay.
Ronnie Teja: Yeah, I burnt out within the first two months. I hated my life. I hated it. I was like, “Oh, my God, should I just quit, and should I just go do like a 9:00 to 5:00 job at some digital agency?”
Daryl Rosser: Yeah.
Ronnie Teja: I was like, “Ugh.” You know what, and luckily for then, that’s when having a good support group really helps. So for example for me, I was telling you about my college room mate. So I went there and I started chatting to him about my business problems, and guess what? He set me up with my call center in the Philippines.
Daryl Rosser: Interesting, okay.
Ronnie Teja: So that was like a big load off my shoulders, and then In could train these people the way I wanted to.
Daryl Rosser: Awesome.
Ronnie Teja: Yeah, it’s always good to tap into your network. If you’re ever in doubt, or just to reach out to somebody. It’s like, “Hey, I’m burnt out.” Man, I remember when I was burnt out. I think I was working maybe 16-hour days, and I used to go to sleep, wake up at 5:00 a.m., and have little, little, breaks to sleep. So it’s not a good feeling, but I think those are the dues you have to pay.
Daryl Rosser: I think it’s important to mention it, because some people get to that stage and they’re like, “These guys are living the life, and traveling, and have it so easy-”
Ronnie Teja: Yeah, those Instagram guys, you mean?
Daryl Rosser: Yeah.
Ronnie Teja: The ones walking up lanes, throwing money everywhere? Yeah. Don’t believe in that bullshit.
Daryl Rosser: Everyone goes through those tough times.
Ronnie Teja: I think anybody who’s in it for short term gain, is stupid. It’s like there’s no way, on God’s green Earth, are you going to … When they say, “Hard work pays off,” that thing’s true, man. It’s crazy. How do you build a business without the dedication to be able to not have been burnt out?
If you haven’t been burnt out at least two or three times in a year, because of your business, you’re not doing it right. I still get burnt out, but it’s good. I consider it … That’s when I travel, so that’s perfect. I think that’s the way to do it.
If you don’t have a long term vision, and you just look … Like those Instagram guys, it’s like, just don’t fucking do it man. It pisses me off.
Daryl Rosser: I like that, I do the same. I’ll work my ass off for three months, or two months, whatever. I’ll just go on a trip, and clear a little up, and then get back again, and do the same thing over, and over, again.
Ronnie Teja: Travel’s our muse, right? There you go, you use traveling, or a change of scenery. Yeah sometimes a change of scenery also helps, don’t you think?
Daryl Rosser: What’s that? A change of scenery?
Ronnie Teja: A change of scenery, yeah. It’s definitely, I think that’s what I’ve found to motivate me a lot more.
Daryl Rosser: Absolutely, man. That’s really interesting. I like that viewpoint. I think a lot of people think that it’s all short term. Like, “I want to make some money now,” like this, “I want to own an e-commerce store, I want it to be profitable, I want it to be making six figures this week.” And they’re so short term thinking, that they’re not thinking of building up a proper brand, and stuff.
On your sites, I presume yo get a lot of return customers, referral traffic, and things like that.
Ronnie Teja: Oh, for sure. I think it’s very important to have. I think I measure my success now with the returning customers, more than just with the one-time purchases. I think it’s important to have that. The retention of your customers is, I think, very important.
For watches, for example, you’ll have returning customers. It’s men’s fashion. We can upsell them on men’s accessories.
Daryl Rosser: Do you wear one?
Ronnie Teja: Yeah, I am. This is it.
Daryl Rosser: Awesome, man.
Ronnie Teja: It’s called Bransio.
Daryl Rosser: Looks good,
Ronnie Teja: Yeah, thanks, man. It’s the only one.
Yeah, but I think that’s where I would measure success, but for some of our other site, they’re functional. Which is, you buy it once, like a router. How many times are you going to buy a router in your life, right? Maybe once every two, three years. But sure, if you come back once every two, three, year’s I’d be happy. But you upsell them on different things on your store.
So I think what people do is, “A sale, is a sale, is a sale.” One time, one shot, and that’s it. No more. But, there’s so many more opportunities from the first time that customer touches your store, to the time they check out, that a customer’s going to make an impression about your store, and it starts with customer service.
Daryl Rosser: That’s why, the sales team. That’s why you have that 24/7 phone number, I guess.
Ronnie Teja: Yeah, always.
Daryl Rosser: That’s cool. Do you do-
Ronnie Teja: Also, someone in chat.
Daryl Rosser: Oh, like live chat in pop-up?
Ronnie Teja: Yeah.
Daryl Rosser: Awesome. How about the guy starting out though. He can’t have … Maybe he can have 12/7 chat.
Ronnie Teja: Yeah, well it depends on how you manage the team. This is something I can’t really answer, because I don’t manage the call center team anymore, but when I did manage it in the back, it used to be an issue. It used to be that people …
I’ll give you a great example. This is how bad I was.
Daryl Rosser: All right.
Ronnie Teja: Whatever answers I used to write in the, for example in an email? My call center was to just literally just copy and paste the exact same answer, and sent it to the customer. Which is, of course, the worst customer experience you can ever get, right?
So now, I can understand it. It’s much better, but we also started using analytics. So there’s a great company out there called Aircall.io that I use, that gives you great analytics about your calls. About your calls every day. Like, how much time are people spending every day on say the phone, what sort of phone calls that they have. We do QA, quality assurance. That is a big part of it.
And the other thing was I upgraded to a good … I spent extra money on getting the right chat software, and the right plug-ins. So Aircall, for example, plugs into ZenDesk. So I can actually look at each employee, each call center agent. What is the call history? What is the chat history?
Calls I can listen to, chats I can monitor. Just, and it’s a sweep we have to do every two weeks. It’s important to be able to be on top of those things. Yeah, but they’re managed.
We automated half our processes, which were manual earlier. That helped cut down a lot of the stuff.
Daryl Rosser: How do you know when to … You’re investing into all things, because you’re building a brand. How do you know when to invest into advertising, and traffic, and getting more people to the site, versus the call center, versus redesigning the site, versus adding development features?
Ronnie Teja: Advertising is always going to be top of the list, for me-
Daryl Rosser: Yeah, you’re an ads guy, right?
Ronnie Teja: Yeah, I’m an ads guy, right, so quick traffic. We always, always, need traffic. Our budget’s quite large, online, but the thing is we need to be focused at all points in time on driving traffic to the site. So it could be affiliate. It could be-
Daryl Rosser: Do you have affiliate programs?
Ronnie Teja: Yeah, we do have affiliate programs as well, yeah. We are building our own affiliate program, but for right now, it’s through which I think is not a good idea. I think I might just … I’ve been told that it’s better to run your own affiliate program. So as you know, I’m still learning a lot of this stuff.
Daryl Rosser: Constantly, right?
Ronnie Teja: Yeah, for sure, and I were to ever put anything in a scale of what’s more important, what is not, I think traffic is always going to be number one. You’re not going to sell anything if you don’t have traffic.
So I think search. I think search. If you want to drive traffic, always go search first. I think Google or Bing is a great example of that. Number one, it’s engine driven. Number two, you’ll know if your property’s going to work or not. I think after that, it’s always going to be design. Yeah. Design and SEO, I think always, they go hand-in-hand, right, at the end of the day.
Daryl Rosser: Because it’s conversion, right?
Ronnie Teja: Yeah, yeah, for sure. I think it’s sure as well, of course Google isn’t going to start looking at your bounce rates and suddenly decide if your page in important or not.
Daryl Rosser: Cool. Everyone loves this question. If you started out from zero again. You lost your sites, you still had your knowledge. You still knew what you know now. What would you do?
Ronnie Teja: I’d be an entrepreneur, man. I’d start a SAS project, try to get some fundraising from somewhere, and start again. I’m never going back to that office, man. Fuck, no.
Daryl Rosser: But you wouldn’t start with e-commerce?
Ronnie Teja: I’ll start with e-commerce. I’ll start with SAS, it doesn’t really matter. So the question, are you asking me is it better to be in e-commerce, versus SAS, versus SEO? Or, is it like would be an entrepreneur, or would you go back to working 9:00 to 5:00?
Daryl Rosser: What sort of project would you start, the first thing?
Ronnie Teja: That’s an interesting one, actually. I’d probably look at starting a sourcing company.
Daryl Rosser: Okay.
Ronnie Teja: Like, a sourcing platform. Yeah, starting a sourcing platform because everybody really wants to be an e-commerce entrepreneur, which is great, but at the same time they don’t know where to get the products. I think there’s a big need for the market to be able to get high quality products, at a good price, with a good MLQ, with the knowledge of what’s happening in China.
Or even China, for example. China’s one of the main hubs, at the moment. A lot of Chinese companies are outsourcing their production to Southeast Asia.
Daryl Rosser: Really.
Ronnie Teja: Vietnam’s a great example of that. Like Nike, Adidas, and Armour, everything’s made in Vietnam. Cambodia’s a big one. Lululemon outsourced all of their stuff to Cambodia and Taiwan. So, it comes under that. You need to have this know-how, and knowledge of what you can gain from experience, to be able to do that.
Daryl Rosser: Yeah, that’s really cool. Cool, man.
Any final thoughts? Anything for the people out there trying to scale up, that we just haven’t mentioned, that you can just wrap-up on?
Ronnie Teja: I don’t know. Don’t make the same mistakes as I did?
Don’t make the same mistakes as I did. Hire the right people. Hire people you get along with. And I think, “get along” doesn’t mean he’s your friend. Please do not make that mistake. Do not fucking hire friends to run your business. Do not ever do that. I think it leads to a lot more issue.
Then, if you found something that you really like, and you’re passionate about it, just go ahead and do it. Spend 100 bucks, spend 200 bucks. Shopify costs you what? $70 a month?
Daryl Rosser: I’m not even sure how much.
Ronnie Teja: Yeah, 70 bucks a month, right? Spend a weekend setting it up, and then go get your product and test it out. To become an entrepreneur in e-commerce today it’ll cost less than $500 to find the right product and to set up your website, and to be able to get up and running.
Daryl Rosser: Because you like you said at the beginning, you just test it, and you figure out really fast, what works. You just go with that.
Ronnie Teja: That’s what it is, yeah. There’s nobody waiting there with a platter, and with some money for you at the end of the tunnel, and be like, “Hey man, you’ve done very well, here’s some cash.” But, no, you’ve got to put your time in, and get … Pay your dues. I think it’s important, and it’s like hopefully, one day you’re burnt out, and you feel the satisfaction of running a big, e-com website.
Daryl Rosser: Yeah. How did your revenue grow, by the way? Did it snowball faster, and faster? Was it initially very slow, then it shot up?
Ronnie Teja: I’d say it’s a few things. It’s a combination of a few things. A few of our competitors went bankrupt. That helps. Really helps.
Daryl Rosser: Thank you.
Ronnie Teja: Yeah, thank you very much. I think some cases what happened was that people, they … When I talk about having middle management, that’s the day my revenue actually started growing tremendously, and it’s-
Daryl Rosser: So it wasn’t all you.
Ronnie Teja: No, no, no. It’s not me at all. It’s the people that I work with, and the people that I hire. I think they have actually changed it for the better. All I’ve done, is I’ve selected a few products to sell.
Daryl Rosser: Yeah.
Ronnie Teja: And of course I worked on it, but it’s also the matter of saying, “If I didn’t have the support of my team, I don’t think our business would be this big.” I think it’s my team, that actually does everything.
Daryl Rosser: Was it difficult initially to let go of, say, you’re an ads guy. The traffic, the ads. I know you still.
Ronnie Teja: I still haven’t let go. No, no, I still haven’t let go of it. I think I still do it, but you know what happens, is if I start making changes in Adwords, or in Facebook ads, now my people get angry at me, because they’re probably aiming to optimize something, and then of course, Ronnie comes along, “Oh, pshaw. Let’s stick with this, It’s better to start bringing in money,” and blah, blah, blah. “It’s not going to lead to anything else.”
I think it’s sometimes good to be patient as well. I’m not a very patient guy. I think-
Daryl Rosser: I just think it’s a good thing, for us, because we just get out there, and get her done.
Ronnie Teja: I think it’s important. I think we have to be aggressive. You have to be really, really, aggressive. If you’re not aggressive enough with your business or anything else, I think you’re losing out on that fire, I think.
Daryl Rosser: Absolutely. That’s a cool pull to wrap it up on, man. Thanks for joining me.
Ronnie Teja: Yeah, thanks, buddy.
Daryl Rosser: It’s been awesome.
Ronnie Teja: Appreciate it.
Daryl Rosser: Alright.